Webasto woes

[longy]

Hi all looking for a bit of advice re our webasto central heating system.

We have been using the system for a couple of years without any hiccups and this morning I have put the system on and the rads are taking an age to warm up. The are definitely warming up as they are now currently at 40c .

I have thought for a few weeks now that the rads need topping up with 50% antifreeze/water but I am unsure if this is something that needs to be done or not. If so how could I check also in on if the lockers are the stern there's a 22mm copper pipe pointing upwards with a valve at the bottom and I was always under the impression that is where it is topped up from.

Any ideas please

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, longy said:

Hi all looking for a bit of advice re our webasto central heating system.

We have been using the system for a couple of years without any hiccups and this morning I have put the system on and the rads are taking an age to warm up. The are definitely warming up as they are now currently at 40c .

I have thought for a few weeks now that the rads need topping up with 50% antifreeze/water but I am unsure if this is something that needs to be done or not. If so how could I check also in on if the lockers are the stern there's a 22mm copper pipe pointing upwards with a valve at the bottom and I was always under the impression that is where it is topped up from.

Any ideas please

 

I doubt 50% antifreeze, 25 or 30% more likely. The stronger the antifreeze concentration, the less heat (not temperature) the liquid can carry around the system

 

Typically, the systems use a header tank to both top up and allow for the expansion and contraction f the liquid a st heats and cools, although I have seen some systems that are sealed and using an expansion vessel and filling loop.

 

Boats are one offs with many variations, so I think that you may have to trace your pipes, but a length of 22mm pipe seems very odd to me.

Edited March 29 by Tony Brooks

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, longy said:

Hi all looking for a bit of advice re our webasto central heating system.

We have been using the system for a couple of years without any hiccups and this morning I have put the system on and the rads are taking an age to warm up. The are definitely warming up as they are now currently at 40c .

I have thought for a few weeks now that the rads need topping up with 50% antifreeze/water but I am unsure if this is something that needs to be done or not. If so how could I check also in on if the lockers are the stern there's a 22mm copper pipe pointing upwards with a valve at the bottom and I was always under the impression that is where it is topped up from.

Any ideas please

Welcome to the forum. Every boat, every heat system is different, maybe post a sketch or some photos of what you have showing the associated equipment may help 

[longy]

Will do 

[longy]

Ok here goes

 

The plastic webasto header tank has never been in play as I know 

 

There are 2 15 mm feeder pipes in the stern locker as per photos. I can only assume one is for the central heating and the other is for the fire but I am not 100%

I have put my hand near to the exhaust outlet and although hot I expected it to be hotter. Could another reason be that the heater jets aren't working as they should thus only delivering 50% 

Thanks all

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I doubt 50% antifreeze, 25 or 30% more likely. The stronger the antifreeze concentration, the less heat (not temperature) the liquid can carry around the system

 

Typically, the systems use a header tank to both top up and allow for the expansion and contraction f the liquid a st heats and cools, although I have seen some systems that are sealed and using an expansion vessel and filling loop.

 

Boats are one offs with many variations, so I think that you may have to trace your pipes, but a length of 22mm pipe seems very odd to me.

 

Indeed. When I replaced the engine coolant and central heating system I initially used a 50% antifreeze mix. Fine for the engine, but the central heating system didn't get hot.

 

I reduced the concentration in the central heating system to 25% and it has been fine since.

[PeterF]

Webasto manuals state 25% antifreeze.

 

 

[bizzard]

Boats don't need a strong solution of antifreeze, they don't have the freezing wind blowing through them like a vehicles radiator does which can freeze before the thermostat opens. About 15 to 20 percent would be fine. And buy the concentrated kind to mix yourself with distilled water. The ready mixed stuff might have been brewed in Peckham at Nelson Mandela House with tap water.  Use distilled or deiron ized water in the system.

[LadyG]

Ive just topped the reservoir with half a litre of Prestone, wonderjng if i should drain off one of the radiators which gets warm, but the other one is hot.

The reservoir lid is missing, should i cover it to prevent evapouration.

Edited March 29 by LadyG

[longy]

Ok I know know that the system I have is in fact a pressurised system using an expansion tank and filling is by the way of the copper pipes in the photo.

My question is 

A How do I know how full it is now

B is it just a case of opening the valves at the bottom and using a funnel to top up the system

Has any got any experience using this system

Many thanks

 

[Onewheeler]

I'd have guessed that those pipes with gate valves are for bleeding the system. It looks a bit difficult to use them to top up, but then people do weird things on boats. What happens to the water when it expands?

[longy]

Not 100% sure but doesn't the expansion tank take care of that.

In the operating manual for the boat under the central heating system it states

A connection is fitted to fill the water system which is located in the rear deck locker the operating pressure should be checked on a regular basis on the gauge on the expansion vessel and maintained at the correct level by topping up with water mixed with antifreeze.

Hope this helps

I have just checked the gauge and am I correct in thinking that the red dial it where the pressure should be set to and the black arrow is showing that it needs filling.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

You appear to have no water - you need to (by whatever means) fill the system with water until the 'Black' arrow aligns with the 'orange' arrow.

 

One presumes that having lost 'all' (?) of your water / water pressure that you have either 'boiled it off' or, have a leak.

[Tracy D'arth]

Your sealed system has zero pressure. It would look to have a red expansion vessel and a tap for filling with a hose connected to the water supply from your pump adjacent to that gauge. The photo is a bit close to be sure.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You appear to have no water - you need to (by whatever means) fill the system with water until the 'Black' arrow aligns with the 'orange' arrow.

 

One presumes that having lost 'all' (?) of your water / water pressure that you have either 'boiled it off' or, -  have a leak.

 

I don't think so, That gauge does measure water pressure, but it is dependant upon the air pressure in the expansion vessel - just like in combi-boilers, so you may well be correct in that  there is a water leak, but it could just as well be a slit diaphragm in the expansion vessel

 

1 hour ago, longy said:

Ok I know know that the system I have is in fact a pressurised system using an expansion tank and filling is by the way of the copper pipes in the photo.

My question is 

A How do I know how full it is now

B is it just a case of opening the valves at the bottom and using a funnel to top up the system

Has any got any experience using this system

Many thanks

 

 

My thoughts based on basic principles, not product knowledge.

 

That looks like a hybrid system with an expansion vessel and a header tank. Not easy to sort out. If the red expansion vessel in the photo is for the central heating, then the plastic header tank in the photo must have a totally sealed cap, otherwise pressure would escape via the cap. However the unused hose stub on the header tank suggests to me that it might not be in use. I will assume it is.

 

I would take the cap off the header tank and try blowing up the expansion vessel, there is normally a Schrader valve on it under a plastic cap. If it refuses to pressurise and you hear bubbling from inside the expansion vessel one can assume the diaphragm has split. If the pressure starts to rise then let it back down to a tad above zero.

 

The problem now is that you need to put more mixture in, under pressure, until the expansion tank pressure gauge reads to the red pointer. In a domestic system this would be via the filling loop, but in this case it really needs antifreeze mixture. (The expansion vessel will be full of air on the air side of the diaphragm.) It may require injecting the antifreeze mixture into a radiator bleed valve like they do with inhibitor on domestic systems or the 15mm pipe with the gate valve may be the way to do it, but what you would use and how is open to question.  If the other 15mm pipe and valve is for the domestic water system, then a length of hose would form a pressurised filling loop as long as the domestic water pump is turned on. However, that would tend to dilute the antifreeze mixture.

 

If you need to bleed any part of the system the pressure gauge will drop so it will need refilling with liquid to bring the pressure up.

 

 

[Eeyore]

Humour me please.

You can get your hand all around the plastic "header" tank, and can't feel or see any pipe or hose connections?

I would consider it very optimistic to use gate valves to achieve 100% seal regardless of actual function. You need to trace where these are connected.

A new image of the gauge from slightly further back might be helpful.

[longy]

Not 100% sure but doesn't the expansion tank take care of that.

In the operating manual for the boat under the central heating system it states

A connection is fitted to fill the water system which is located in the rear deck locker the operating pressure should be checked on a regular basis on the gauge on the expansion vessel and maintained at the correct level by topping up with water mixed with antifreeze.

Hope this helps

As an update I have managed to fill the expansion tank as there was a feed loop by the tank as Tracy suggested.

Now it appears that by running the system dry I might of damaged the webasto as there's white smoke coming from the exhaust and a smell of diesel.

It looks like a repair is on the cards

Edited April 4 by longy

[Eeyore]

6 minutes ago, longy said:

Not 100% sure but doesn't the expansion tank take care of that.

In the operating manual for the boat under the central heating system it states

A connection is fitted to fill the water system which is located in the rear deck locker the operating pressure should be checked on a regular basis on the gauge on the expansion vessel and maintained at the correct level by topping up with water mixed with antifreeze.

Hope this helps

Not sure how repeating your self is helping us to help you.

At least give us the picture I reqested 😎 

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, longy said:

Not 100% sure but doesn't the expansion tank take care of that.

In the operating manual for the boat under the central heating system it states

A connection is fitted to fill the water system which is located in the rear deck locker the operating pressure should be checked on a regular basis on the gauge on the expansion vessel and maintained at the correct level by topping up with water mixed with antifreeze.

Hope this helps

As an update I have managed to fill the expansion tank as there was a feed loop by the tank as Tracy suggested.

Now it appears that by running the system dry I might of damaged the webasto as there's white smoke coming from the exhaust and a smell of diesel.

It looks like a repair is on the cards

 

The red part - That is what I tried to describe to you, a filling loop, but the liquid you put in needs to be under pressure so it can compress the air in the red expansion vessel up to the red marker.

 

I agree with Eeyore, just repeating the question you have now asked three times is not going to endear yourself to those who would like to help you. You also seem to be avoiding answering questions. You may well not understand why such question are being asked but they are needed to understand your system.

[Eeyore]

22 minutes ago, longy said:

Not 100% sure but doesn't the expansion tank take care of that.

In the operating manual for the boat under the central heating system it states

A connection is fitted to fill the water system which is located in the rear deck locker the operating pressure should be checked on a regular basis on the gauge on the expansion vessel and maintained at the correct level by topping up with water mixed with antifreeze.

Hope this helps

As an update I have managed to fill the expansion tank as there was a feed loop by the tank as Tracy suggested.

Now it appears that by running the system dry I might of damaged the webasto as there's white smoke coming from the exhaust and a smell of diesel.

It looks like a repair is on the cards

Thanks for the update. The forum software has an annoying habit of combining posts, and making it difficult to follow threads sometimes. I'm still curious as to why the header tank is there at all. Might as well remove it as its only taking up valuable space.

[longy]

9 minutes ago, Eeyore said:

Thanks for the update. The forum software has an annoying habit of combining posts, and making it difficult to follow threads sometimes. I'm still curious as to why the header tank is there at all. Might as well remove it as its only taking up valuable space.

Sorry for any confusion I will post a pic of the expansion tank inlets in more detail

My posts are also getting combined which makes it appear that I am saying the same thing over and over

I also agree on the plast expansion tank next to the webasto being removed it is now on my job list.

28 minutes ago, Eeyore said:

Thanks for the update. The forum software has an annoying habit of combining posts, and making it difficult to follow threads sometimes. I'm still curious as to why the header tank is there at all. Might as well remove it as its only taking up valuable space.

Sorry for any confusion I will post a pic of the expansion tank inlets in more detail

My posts are also getting combined which makes it appear that I am saying the same thing over and over

I also agree on the plast expansion tank next to the webasto being removed it is now on my job list.

[Eeyore]

The blue arrow points to red knob for adjusting the pressure relief valve. These can sometimes stick/weep, so its worth checking that nothing is dripping from the pipe marked in red.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, longy said:

Now it appears that by running the system dry I might of damaged the webasto as there's white smoke coming from the exhaust and a smell of diesel.

It looks like a repair is on the cards

 

That is quite possible - I did the same on my domestic (house) system as I did not check regularly, it ended up 'overheating the domestic boiler' which fortunately had an overheat / failsafe incorporated into it and it just took a 'boilerman' with a little prodder to reset it, but now I have a prodder and know where to poke it I can do it myself.

[Tony Brooks]

The silver braided pipe is, I think, the filling loop, but you will need the domestic water pump on to use it.

 

The white smoke might be the result of a build-up of diesel in the burner or then exhaust form when it did not start or low battery voltage, so try to start it with the engine running with a few revs on it. If it is white smoke and not steam it sounds like vaporised but unburned fuel.

[longy]

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The silver braided pipe is, I think, the filling loop, but you will need the domestic water pump on to use it.

 

The white smoke might be the result of a build-up of diesel in the burner or then exhaust form when it did not start or low battery voltage, so try to start it with the engine running with a few revs on it. If it is white smoke and not steam it sounds like vaporised but unburned fuel.

How long would you run it for Tony also I take it I should see some rise in the radiator temps once it's been on a while