Roving boaters

[magnetman]

 

And entitled squatters of course with a political agenda and somewhere else to live. 

 

Just now, Mike Todd said:

I have seen numerous WB's with no home mooring but very few CCing in any real sense of the term.

 

 

For new boats a test licence should probably be promoted. You get on the water but it is made clear -before- this that if you do not abide by the guidelines then your boat gets taken away by S8. Fast. 

 

This could raise some funds for the CRT. Why do they always end up only seizing old POS scrap boats? Time to get some value. 

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

Surely it would be better to get disabled boaters off the boat and into land based accomodation. 

 

This is getting silly. 

Perhaps you could look at the range of conditions that are counted as a disability, far from being just wheelchair users. In addition, some people entitled to a reasonable adjustment might not have a condition that they would themselves call a disability, perhaps a characteristic. 'Life limiting condition' is also used at times.

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, Mike Todd said:

Perhaps you could look at the range of conditions that are counted as a disability, far from being just wheelchair users. In addition, some people entitled to a reasonable adjustment might not have a condition that they would themselves call a disability, perhaps a characteristic. 'Life limiting condition' is also used at times.

Yes I did correct myself afterwards and thanked the other poster for pointing it out.

 

It is just below the post you have quoted.

I myself have a non physical disability and no I'm not moving orf the boat! 

Edited November 26, 2023 by magnetman

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Yes and they have completely overlooked the difficulties experienced by single-handed blind boaters. What do CRT do for them?  

Perhaps you should ask the chair of Accessible Waterways Association (AWA) www.awa-uk.org.uk!

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I have seen numerous WB's with no home mooring but very few CCing in any real sense of the term.

 

I really do feel that it is the design that causes much of this.

A newby wanting a floating flat assumes that their monster, square arsed, double width narrowboat is actually a manoeuvrable boat, once they come to cruise they realise it isn't.

 

There are proper 'boat shaped' widebeams in both GRP (cruisers) and steel (Dutch barges) that handle beautifully.

 

It is the ignorance of the buyer and 'build simplicity and economy' from the builder that drives the market for these behemoths.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It is the ignorance of the buyer and 'build simplicity and economy' from the builder that drives the market for these behemoths.

And a very relaxed attitude to enforcement by the navigation authority. 

[Mad Harold]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd be pretty sure it was not a Dawncraft.

 

I don't recall the make (if I ever knew it), it was about 36-40 foot and 12 (ish) foot beam. It had a 3-step 'ladder' to get up to gunwale height,

 

In his prime he had used it widely for coastal cruising.

Thanks for answering Alan, it's just that on my canal cruising, the majority of sunken/abandoned grp boats I have seen were Dawncraft.

[magnetman]

A company called Dawncraft did actually make a GRP gin palace about 37ft long but it may have been a different company to the one who made the smaller narrow beam cruisers. 

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

It potentially males a lot of difference in price elasticity. See what happened with Help to Buy.

Not a high enough proportion. And help to buy caused price inflation for purchasers, had nothing to do with rents.

[LadyG]

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

And I took him to be asking "What CC surcharge will a fattie have to pay at next renewal".

 

But his question is doubly ambiguous:

 

1) Width surcharges or CC surcharges? Or both? 

2) When?

 

 

 

 

 

He could ask the CRT or read their blurb

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

My EOG mooring, like most, is on a farm. I'm not allowed to keep stuff on the bank unless it's tidily in a small box and obviously there are no mains services.

But you have a farmers field mooring, whereas I believe Cuthound's mooring is actually at the end of his garden.

[MtB]

55 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But you have a farmers field mooring, whereas I believe Cuthound's mooring is actually at the end of his garden.

 

And I bet his landlord charges like a rhino for the shoreline! 

 

🤣

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I’ve realised, IF living on a boat is all about cheap living it may pay to move to a marina or get an online mooring, even at today’s prices without the surcharge for using the system. 
 

Having just got myself a home mooring (hopefully only temporary) it’s possible I have had it wrong over the last so many years. 
 

What I spend on coal through the winter and diesel all year round could pay for the cost being in a marina. 
 

I wouldn’t need to move therefore no diesel cost. 
let’s say £100 per month saved. 
Plus the benefit of no real engine maintenance other than the very basic. 

A set of batteries that really would last a life time. 
No coal, saving let’s say £200 per month over the winter 6 months. 

It would rely on low electricity costs from the bollard to run a couple of small oil heaters in the winter. 🤷‍♀️
 

Solar ticking over nicely through the summer taking care of a sensible use of electricity. 
 

Ablutions done in the marina’s service block. 
Water on tap 

 

what have I missed?

 

get the boat out on hard standing and the costs are even cheaper.  Plus no license to pay at all. 
Win win more beer money 🍻 

 

Claim a gammy leg and have the same Great Expectations of PIP it’s a double whammy. 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[frangar]

2 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I’ve realised, IF living on a boat is all about cheap living it may pay to move to a marina or get an online mooring, even at today’s prices without the surcharge for using the system. 
 

Having just got myself a home mooring (hopefully only temporary) it’s possible I have had it wrong over the last so many years. 
 

What I spend on coal through the winter and diesel all year round could pay for the cost being in a marina. 
 

I wouldn’t need to move therefore no diesel cost. 
let’s say £100 per month saved. 
Plus the benefit of no real engine maintenance other than the very basic. 

A set of batteries that really would last a life time. 
No coal, saving let’s say £200 per month over the winter 6 months. 

It would rely on low electricity costs from the bollard to run a couple of small oil heaters in the winter. 🤷‍♀️
 

Solar ticking over nicely through the summer taking care of a sensible use of electricity. 
 

Ablutions done in the marina’s service block. 
Water on tap 

 

what have I missed?

 

get the boat out on hard standing and the costs are even cheaper.  Plus no license to pay at all. 
Win win more beer money 🍻 

 

Claim a gammy leg and have the same Great Expectations of PIP it’s a double whammy. 

 

 

Apart from you do have to pay for a licence in most marinas…..

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, frangar said:

Apart from you do have to pay for a licence in most marinas…..

 
this the point, even with cost of license at todays prices I will save money being in a low cost marina. 

Just now, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

 
this the point, even with cost of license at todays prices I will save money being in a low cost marina. 

48’ boat usually coasts me between £200 and £300 per month.  

[frangar]

7 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

 
this the point, even with cost of license at todays prices I will save money being in a low cost marina. 

48’ boat usually coasts me between £200 and £300 per month.  

A “low cost” Marina and the facilities you want may not be compatible. Also marinas tend to have a sliding charge for those of us spending more time aboard.

 

I’m fine with this but the fact remains that to liveaboard shouldn’t be seen as a cheap lifestyle or a way to save money over a land based dwelling if you want to be comfortable and do so legally. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, frangar said:

I’m fine with this but the fact remains that to liveaboard shouldn’t be seen as a cheap lifestyle or a way to save money over a land based dwelling if you want to be comfortable and do so legally. 

 

C&RT suggest that boat living is considerably cheaper than being land based - some areas (ie London & Bristol) being far, far cheaper.

 

They put this into one of their documents showing the possible implications of the licence increases :

 

Increased licence fees will impact on the ability of certain boaters to afford to continue to boat. In extreme cases, an increase in the licence fee could impact some boaters ability to continue to live on the waterway and render them homeless. Impact We have considered average income information from the most recent UK census to see if any groups are more likely to have lower incomes and therefore may find the impact of any increase to boat licence fees greater than other groups. 43% of all those who responded to the boat licence consultation stated that their household income was below £30,000 per annum. The Office for National Statistics estimates that from the most recent data available, the median household income was £30,500.

 

1 Although this suggests that the household income for a significant minority a boaters is below the median, the current average licence fee is also well below comparable costs for land-based accommodation. 27% of boaters responding to the BLP review consultation indicated their household income was below £20,000. The average annual boat licence fee as of October 2022 was £856.63, this would be equivalent to approximately 4.3% of a £20,000 annual household income. This is considerably lower than what households on median income on accommodation costs. The 2021 UK Census states that private renters on a median household income could expect to spend 26% of their income on a median-priced rented home in England compared with 23% in Wales in the financial year ending March 2021. London was the least affordable region with a median rent of £1430 being equivalent to 40% of median income.

 

2 It is important to note that the cost of a boat licence is only part of the cost of owning and/or living on a boat. Maintenance costs, and mooring fees (for those with a home mooring) would all be additional costs. The cost of maintaining and running a boat will depend on different factors. For example, how a boat has been maintained, or the age of boat (older boats are likely to require more maintenance). Even taking these additional costs into account, accommodation costs for living on a boat are regarded as a much more affordable than land-based housing costs. A rise in the costs of the boat licence would increase the proportion of income liveaboard boaters spend on accommodation, this would impact most on those on lower or fixed income (see below). However, the boat licence increase would have to be very high before it impacted significantly on the affordability to live on a boat. Even if the average boat licence price were to double, therefore increasing the accommodation costs for living on a boat, the cost of living on a boat would still be well below that spent on accommodation costs by households on a median income in England and Wales, and less than a quarter of that spent by households on a median income in London. Boaters who continuously cruise do not pay a mooring fee, or for accessing water, Elsan, or refuse facilities provided by the Trust, so the cost of living on a boat would remain comparatively more affordable than median-priced rented homes on land. Although there is no income data available for all equality groups, the ONS state that income inequality for retired households remains consistently lower than that of nonretired households. The UK government also report that there is a disability pay gap with disabled persons earning 13.8% less than non-disabled persons

 

3 . The UK government also report that there is a gender pay gap of 8.3%. The ONS state that the ethnicity pay gap differs across regions and is largest in London (23.8%) and smallest in Wales (1.4%) 4 . Older people, those who are pregnant or disabled, can also be subject to reduced or fixed income due to personal circumstances or inability to work. Even where benefits are available to support certain groups, such as disabled people, these are to help cover the additional costs they experience as a disabled person, and not as additional unallocated income. Increases in the licence fee could be felt more acutely by these groups. The added cost of an increase in the boat licence could be a contributing factor in their ability to continue to boat or to continue to live aboard their boat. The increase would have a greater impact on those boaters living aboard their boat; for those who could no longer afford to live aboard their boat, this could lead to homelessness and the need to seek housing provision from their local council.

 

 

52% of continuous cruisers responding to the 2023 boat licence review consultation stated that finding a more affordable way to live is often a motivation to taking up their lifestyle. The introduction of a surcharge for CC boaters may impact on some, who could find it harder to afford to remain living on the water. However, when compared with alternative land-based accommodation costs, living on the water would still be a much more affordable option. The added cost of an increase in the boat licence could be a contributing factor in their ability to continue to boat or to continue to live aboard their boat. The increase would have a greater impact on those boaters living aboard their boat; for those who could no longer afford to live aboard their boat, this could lead to homelessness and the need to seek housing provision from their local council.

 

Housing benefit/universal credit support is available for those who are on very low income. An increase in boat licence fees would be covered by housing benefit/universal credit. Assistance to claim benefits can be provided.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

 

But it’s feasible. 

Just something I was mulling over today when I realised I ain’t got to buy diesel or coal this month. 
 

Not really something I’d look at in closer detail unless I’m still wanting to be on me boat when I’m a proper old codger.

 

But I can understand why others might do it, or do do it to save money. 
 

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

C&RT suggest that boat living is considerably cheaper than being land based - some areas (ie London & Bristol) being far, far cheaper.

 

They put this into one of their documents showing the possible implications of the licence increases :

 

Increased licence fees will impact on the ability of certain boaters to afford to continue to boat. In extreme cases, an increase in the licence fee could impact some boaters ability to continue to live on the waterway and render them homeless. Impact We have considered average income information from the most recent UK census to see if any groups are more likely to have lower incomes and therefore may find the impact of any increase to boat licence fees greater than other groups. 43% of all those who responded to the boat licence consultation stated that their household income was below £30,000 per annum. The Office for National Statistics estimates that from the most recent data available, the median household income was £30,500.

 

1 Although this suggests that the household income for a significant minority a boaters is below the median, the current average licence fee is also well below comparable costs for land-based accommodation. 27% of boaters responding to the BLP review consultation indicated their household income was below £20,000. The average annual boat licence fee as of October 2022 was £856.63, this would be equivalent to approximately 4.3% of a £20,000 annual household income. This is considerably lower than what households on median income on accommodation costs. The 2021 UK Census states that private renters on a median household income could expect to spend 26% of their income on a median-priced rented home in England compared with 23% in Wales in the financial year ending March 2021. London was the least affordable region with a median rent of £1430 being equivalent to 40% of median income.

 

2 It is important to note that the cost of a boat licence is only part of the cost of owning and/or living on a boat. Maintenance costs, and mooring fees (for those with a home mooring) would all be additional costs. The cost of maintaining and running a boat will depend on different factors. For example, how a boat has been maintained, or the age of boat (older boats are likely to require more maintenance). Even taking these additional costs into account, accommodation costs for living on a boat are regarded as a much more affordable than land-based housing costs. A rise in the costs of the boat licence would increase the proportion of income liveaboard boaters spend on accommodation, this would impact most on those on lower or fixed income (see below). However, the boat licence increase would have to be very high before it impacted significantly on the affordability to live on a boat. Even if the average boat licence price were to double, therefore increasing the accommodation costs for living on a boat, the cost of living on a boat would still be well below that spent on accommodation costs by households on a median income in England and Wales, and less than a quarter of that spent by households on a median income in London. Boaters who continuously cruise do not pay a mooring fee, or for accessing water, Elsan, or refuse facilities provided by the Trust, so the cost of living on a boat would remain comparatively more affordable than median-priced rented homes on land. Although there is no income data available for all equality groups, the ONS state that income inequality for retired households remains consistently lower than that of nonretired households. The UK government also report that there is a disability pay gap with disabled persons earning 13.8% less than non-disabled persons

 

3 . The UK government also report that there is a gender pay gap of 8.3%. The ONS state that the ethnicity pay gap differs across regions and is largest in London (23.8%) and smallest in Wales (1.4%) 4 . Older people, those who are pregnant or disabled, can also be subject to reduced or fixed income due to personal circumstances or inability to work. Even where benefits are available to support certain groups, such as disabled people, these are to help cover the additional costs they experience as a disabled person, and not as additional unallocated income. Increases in the licence fee could be felt more acutely by these groups. The added cost of an increase in the boat licence could be a contributing factor in their ability to continue to boat or to continue to live aboard their boat. The increase would have a greater impact on those boaters living aboard their boat; for those who could no longer afford to live aboard their boat, this could lead to homelessness and the need to seek housing provision from their local council.

 

 

52% of continuous cruisers responding to the 2023 boat licence review consultation stated that finding a more affordable way to live is often a motivation to taking up their lifestyle. The introduction of a surcharge for CC boaters may impact on some, who could find it harder to afford to remain living on the water. However, when compared with alternative land-based accommodation costs, living on the water would still be a much more affordable option. The added cost of an increase in the boat licence could be a contributing factor in their ability to continue to boat or to continue to live aboard their boat. The increase would have a greater impact on those boaters living aboard their boat; for those who could no longer afford to live aboard their boat, this could lead to homelessness and the need to seek housing provision from their local council.

 

Housing benefit/universal credit support is available for those who are on very low income. An increase in boat licence fees would be covered by housing benefit/universal credit. Assistance to claim benefits can be provided.

 

TL:DR

 

Hope that helps.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

My suggestion was intended as marina mooring could be cheaper than living with no home mooring

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

TL:DR

 

Hope that helps.

 

Maybe the concept is too difficult for you to follow.

 

Try reading it in bite size chunks and once you understand that move onto the next chunk.

 

 

That was a summary - I could have posted the whole 10 page document but thought it may be too much for you.

 

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe the concept is too difficult for you to follow.

 

Try reading it in bite size chunks and once you understand that move onto the next chunk.

 

 

That was a summary - I could have posted the whole 10 page document but thought it may be too much for you.

 

 

TL:DR

[Rob-M]

We still purchase coal and run the Eberspacher for hot water whilst in the marina.  Solar covers all electric usage during the summer, but this time of year keeps up with the fridge, water pump and lights usage but run 240v off shorepower rather than inverter.  We do use a mix of the marina showers and sometimes the shower on the boat.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

But you have a farmers field mooring, whereas I believe Cuthound's mooring is actually at the end of his garden.

Sorry, I thought we were talking in general rather than specific.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, Rob-M said:

We still purchase coal and run the Eberspacher for hot water whilst in the marina.  Solar covers all electric usage during the summer, but this time of year keeps up with the fridge, water pump and lights usage but run 240v off shorepower rather than inverter.  We do use a mix of the marina showers and sometimes the shower on the boat.

electricity seems cheap enough here, which is why I thought a couple of oil heaters

 

I got gas for hot water,

 

a bit of foraged wood for the stove on the coldest days 

 

( this really is just idle thoughts, as you know I won’t  be on the boat while it’s here)