Try before you buy?

[roland elsdon]

I tried before I bought. After that there was no option . Deal done.

But then it was our 4 th historic boat.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are several advantages to dealing with a broker (as there are with Estate agents and 2nd hand car dealers) - non of them to do with providing the buyer with information, help or offering additional ownership checks etc.

 

Basically brokers take money for listing on their website and providing boat parking.

 

For the Seller :

They do not have to deal with the 'great unwashed public'

They can avoid having to go and demonstrate the boat to loads of tyre kickers

They don't have to talk about that embarassing subject - Money.

They don't have to say 'no' to a potential buyer and risk a punch in the mouth.

 

For the Buyer :

A number of boats all within a small area - you could travel 1000s of miles looking at different privately owned boats but with a broker there could be several that meet your requirements in one marina.

Lots of adverts on the web to view.

Many brokers based in a fairly small area around the Midlands

I don't think anyone would dispute that. It doesn't stop some brokers being much more helpful and informative than others, which must increase their chances of making a sale -- but it does involve spending more time and effort learning about what they're selling, which some obviously can't be ar*ed to do. Presumably they think that it's not worth the bother since the boat will sell to somebody else even if they don't put the effort in... 😞

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

As you say even if you proceeded you may have an unforeseen event in your life that genuinely forces you to pull out of the sale.

 

Most boat sale contracts (certainly those written by the BMF and the RYA) have a clause covering this :

 

My Son was buying a £200,000 boat, had paid the deposit (£20k) and was awaiting a surveyor.

He was involved in a car accident which meant he was taken into hospital and had a scan where they found he had a brain tumour the size of a golf-ball.

 

Force Majeure.

A Party shall not be deemed in default of this Agreement, nor shall it hold the other Party responsible for, any cessation, interruption or delay in the performance of its obligations due to earthquake, flood, fire, storm, natural disaster, act of God, war, terrorism, armed conflict, labor strike, lockout, boycott, unavoidable casualty or other similar events beyond the reasonable control of the Party, provided that the Party relying upon this provision:

·         gives prompt written notice thereof, and

·         takes all steps reasonably necessary to mitigate the effects of the force majeure event.

·         If a force majeure event extends for a period in excess of 30 days in the aggregate, either Party may immediately terminate this Agreement upon written notice.

 

We invoked the 'Force Majeure' clause which was accepted and the money was refunded the same day.

[David Mack]

6 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

As you say even if you proceeded you may have an unforeseen event in your life that genuinely forces you to pull out of the sale.

On this point I have some sympathy for the vendor and broker. The whole point of the deposit is to give reasonable certainty that the sale will proceed (if the survey finds nothing major amiss). The buyer's unforseen life event is really not their concern. What happens if the buyer has an unforseen life event just after the purchase has gone through?

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Non of this is any good, if the buyer travels hundreds of miles and then has the broker object to providing essential information to the potential buyer.

 

 

 

Then the buyer should show a little ininiative and ensure that what he wants to do at the visit can be done, or is available.

Far too many people these days seem to want everything provided on a plate and will do nothing for themselves.

[Higgs]

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then the buyer should show a little ininiative and ensure that what he wants to do at the visit can be done, or is available.

Far too many people these days seem to want everything provided on a plate and will do nothing for themselves.

 

In some cases, the potential buyer would have forewarned the broker of their expectations. At which point, the broker has a chance to refuse. Saving the buyer a trip.

 

It recently happened to me, the broker failed, and I made the mistake of expecting the broker to have listened. I intend to look at another boat, being sold as a private sale. The owner will be there, who understands the boat.

 

I also would not put a deposit down for the privilege of then paying for a survey. That expense alone should indicate to any broker the seriousness of the buyer.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Higgs

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then the buyer should show a little ininiative and ensure that what he wants to do at the visit can be done, or is available.

Far too many people these days seem to want everything provided on a plate and will do nothing for themselves.

 

Surely the prospective buyer shouldn't have to ask the broker to confirm "Will it be possible to hear the engine running?", any more than they should have to ask "Can I turn the lights on?" or "Can I look into all the lockers/engine space?" -- it's a pretty fundamental "Is the boat OK?" check, which should be supported by brokers as a matter of course without having to be specifically asked.

 

If something this basic *isn't* possible then the broker should tell the buyer upfront before they visit, along with any other things which aren't possible but would normally be expected on a viewing.

 

If they don't, they're not doing their job properly.

Edited November 6, 2023 by IanD

[Mike Tee]

I When we were looking for a boat recently there was one broker (can’t remember which one and they may have changed their terms by now) who said on their website something along the lines of ‘ if you make an offer under the asking price that is accepted, and the survey shows work required, don’t expect a further reduction if the work required is less than you already have got off the asking price because you have already had £X off the asking price’. That broker had a 10% deposit scheme and it was up to them to decide if the survey report was significant enough for a reduction in accepted offer. Basically they had your 10% and you were not getting it back so you might as well carry on and buy the boat!

I wouldn’t even look at their boat sales adverts.

 

eta - just checked, it was, and still is, Nationwide Boat Sales (formally Great Haywood Boat Sales)

Edited November 6, 2023 by Mike Tee

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

urely the prospective buyer shouldn't have to ask the broker to confirm "Will it be possible to hear the engine running?", any more than they should have to ask "Can I turn the lights on?" or "Can I look into all the lockers/engine space?" -- it's a pretty fundamental "Is the boat OK?" check, which should be supported by brokers as a matter of course without having to be specifically asked.

 

 

You have never actually purchased a boat (from a broker) have you.
Your expectations are way, way above the actuality.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You have never actually purchased a boat (from a broker) have you.
Your expectations are way, way above the actuality.

 

No I haven't. I'm still surprised that it's seen as acceptable (at least, by some...) that you have to ask such blindingly obvious questions, but then I suppose being "economical with the truth" is the way that too many businesses work nowadays... 😞

[Higgs]

59 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

I When we were looking for a boat recently there was one broker (can’t remember which one and they may have changed their terms by now) who said on their website something along the lines of ‘ if you make an offer under the asking price that is accepted, and the survey shows work required, don’t expect a further reduction if the work required is less than you already have got off the asking price because you have already had £X off the asking price’. That broker had a 10% deposit scheme and it was up to them to decide if the survey report was significant enough for a reduction in accepted offer. Basically they had your 10% and you were not getting it back so you might as well carry on and buy the boat!

I wouldn’t even look at their boat sales adverts.

 

eta - just checked, it was, and still is, Nationwide Boat Sales (formally Great Haywood Boat Sales)

 

It's unacceptable, for a broker to hold any of the buyer's money, before the condition of the boat has been established. Paying in advance of any such information leaves the buyer trying to negotiate with their own money at risk, should negotiations for the boat be difficult, on finding faults with the boat.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Higgs

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

No I haven't. I'm still surprised that it's seen as acceptable (at least, by some...) that you have to ask such blindingly obvious questions, but then I suppose being "economical with the truth" is the way that too many businesses work nowadays... 😞

 

 

And by being 'economical with the truth' means they tell no lies.

Buying from a broker has no added safety benefits over buying privately and just adds another cost into the chain.

 

I have sold almost all of my boats privately and have, in effect, deducted the brokers margin from my asking price so I get about the same as I would have done if using a broker and the buyer gets a 5% - 10% saving.

 

Why pay the parasites ? (having said that - as stated earlier, they do offer some benefits to some buyers and some more than others.)

Edited November 6, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Higgs]

1 hour ago, Mike Tee said:

eta - just checked, it was, and still is, Nationwide Boat Sales (formally Great Haywood Boat Sales)

 

They have an office at Fradley. Shan't be looking at any boats on their site.

 

And in a previous post, the potential buyer was dismayed, when the engine couldn't be seen working, and therefore, had no idea if the boat could make it to dry-docking and survey under its own steam.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Higgs

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

On this point I have some sympathy for the vendor and broker. The whole point of the deposit is to give reasonable certainty that the sale will proceed (if the survey finds nothing major amiss). The buyer's unforseen life event is really not their concern. What happens if the buyer has an unforseen life event just after the purchase has gone through?

After the completed purchase when the new buyer sails away is completely different to pre-purchase deposit, I would say.

  I think some brokers have seen the nieve people who are buying boats and are using the “non-refundable” bit as to maybe put pressure on to force the sale once deposit is taken.

 

[Mad Harold]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Most boat sale contracts (certainly those written by the BMF and the RYA) have a clause covering this :

 

My Son was buying a £200,000 boat, had paid the deposit (£20k) and was awaiting a surveyor.

He was involved in a car accident which meant he was taken into hospital and had a scan where they found he had a brain tumour the size of a golf-ball.

 

Force Majeure.

A Party shall not be deemed in default of this Agreement, nor shall it hold the other Party responsible for, any cessation, interruption or delay in the performance of its obligations due to earthquake, flood, fire, storm, natural disaster, act of God, war, terrorism, armed conflict, labor strike, lockout, boycott, unavoidable casualty or other similar events beyond the reasonable control of the Party, provided that the Party relying upon this provision:

·         gives prompt written notice thereof, and

·         takes all steps reasonably necessary to mitigate the effects of the force majeure event.

·         If a force majeure event extends for a period in excess of 30 days in the aggregate, either Party may immediately terminate this Agreement upon written notice.

 

 

We invoked the 'Force Majeure' clause which was accepted and the money was refunded the same day.

The broker in this case acted professionaly.Many do not.

If everyone refused to deal with brokers who use this non returnable deposit nonsense, it would soon stop.

 

[Didne]

Boatfinderbrokerage couldn’t even be bothered to send an agent to show me round the two boats last week … they relied on the marina staff doing that instead, who were very pleasant but by their own admission knew absolutely nothing about the boats in question … I voiced that I was unimpressed by this …  ‘oh, if you come for a second viewing I expect they’ll turn up …. then they’ll know you’re serious’ … “They think I’m not serious ? … I’ve had to arrange for someone to care for my mum … it’s taken me an hour and a half to drive here … it’ll take me as long to drive back … and I’m not serious ?” … The owner of the beautiful boat thought perhaps the only reason they didn’t bother was because they knew he was going to be there anyway to show me his boat … But what about the other boat I went to see ? … the owner of that one wasn’t there, but the broker still didn’t turn up …

 

 

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Most boat sale contracts (certainly those written by the BMF and the RYA) have a clause covering this :

 

My Son was buying a £200,000 boat, had paid the deposit (£20k) and was awaiting a surveyor.

He was involved in a car accident which meant he was taken into hospital and had a scan where they found he had a brain tumour the size of a golf-ball.

 

Force Majeure.

A Party shall not be deemed in default of this Agreement, nor shall it hold the other Party responsible for, any cessation, interruption or delay in the performance of its obligations due to earthquake, flood, fire, storm, natural disaster, act of God, war, terrorism, armed conflict, labor strike, lockout, boycott, unavoidable casualty or other similar events beyond the reasonable control of the Party, provided that the Party relying upon this provision:

·         gives prompt written notice thereof, and

·         takes all steps reasonably necessary to mitigate the effects of the force majeure event.

·         If a force majeure event extends for a period in excess of 30 days in the aggregate, either Party may immediately terminate this Agreement upon written notice.

 

 

We invoked the 'Force Majeure' clause which was accepted and the money was refunded the same day.

so sorry to hear of your son’s tumour … I do hope the doctors were able to treat him and return him to full health … Big Hugs … xxx

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Didne

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

The broker in this case acted professionaly.Many do not.

If everyone refused to deal with brokers who use this non returnable deposit nonsense, it would soon stop.

 

 

I agree completely.

 

Many inland waterways brokers use the BMF code of practice Sales Contracts, which does include the Force majeure clause (clause 11) so should something serious (lose job, have heart attack etc) arise then the buyer is well within their rights to require the return of the deposit. If they have simply changed their mind as they have found another boat - tough - you lose your deposit.

 

 

There is also a lengthy clause (available to both parties to read before signing) allowing the negotiation of a reduction in price &/or the deposit return. If buyers are not prepared to read the small prony of what they are signing then it is no wonder they feel aggrieved when the clauses they have agree to are implemented.

 

Extract from BMF contract :

 

1.      Defects

1.1. If the inspection, survey or sea trial reveals any major defects in the Vessel, its machinery, gear or equipment which affects the operational integrity of the Vessel or her systems or renders her unseaworthy, and such defect was not disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to the signing of this Agreement, or if there are any deficiencies in the inventory prepared and attached to this Agreement, for which the aggregate cost of rectification by a competent and reputable shipyard or replacements (on a like for like basis, discounted to second hand prices) is collectively equal to or exceeds 5% of the Purchase Price then the Purchaser may give written notice to the Seller or the Broker within 7 days of completion of the inspection, survey and sea trial, whichever is the later, specifying the defects and/or deficiencies and including a copy of all relevant extracts from a surveyor’s or adviser’s report, and either:

1.1.1. reject the Vessel, or

1.1.2. require the Seller to make good the defects and/or deficiencies or make a sufficient reduction in the Purchase Price to enable the Purchaser to do so.  In this case all agreed items of work shall be completed without undue delay and shall be carried out to the express requirements contained in the Notice served by the Purchaser.

For the purposes of this Clause 5.1 and Clause 5.1.2 "completion of survey" shall mean the date of receipt by the Purchaser of a written or emailed survey report.

1.2. If the Purchaser serves notice under Clause 5.1.1, or Clause 5.1.2, and; 

1.2.1. the Seller fails within 21 days after service of the notice to agree to make good the defects or deficiencies specified in the notice without unreasonable delay or; 

1.2.2. the parties shall not have agreed within 14 days after service of the notice upon the amount by which the Purchase Price is to be reduced

THEN this Agreement shall be rescinded and the Deposit paid shall be refunded to the Purchaser in accordance with Clause 8.

 

[Mad Harold]

17 hours ago, WhiteSuit said:

Looking for a boat with an old engine in a proper engine room, I thought I had found a couple of potential boats at one broker in the East Midlands. I used this broker to sell my last boat and had no issues over that sale. I rang and made appointments for both boats making it clear I needed to hear the engines if the boat was as good 'in the flesh'. My first boat had a Kingfisher which was rather loud, though a nice sound, in particular when bouncing off lock walls. So much so that it used to be a relief to pull the stop after a few hours cruising.

Having travelled over a hundred miles to view, the first boat ticked a lot of boxes so I asked to hear it run. The response was we don't start old engines till you have agreed a price and paid a deposit. The deposit would have included a £1000 non refundable portion. They would run a modern engine but there was no way you could move away from the jetty. How can you tell if a boat can stop/start, is manoeuvrable and the gearbox is functioning without trying it? "We are not here for a jolly" was the response. Every other boat I have bought, through brokers, I had a test cruise. They seemed to think that a survey would show any issue but by that stage it would have cost me at least £2000, deposit lift out and survey, which I would loose in order to confirm the boat was right. They also would not connect leisure batts or gas to check everything was working. The boat that ticked the boxes for me I would not even have had a survey on as there was a year old survey to view. But I would have needed to check everything was in order before putting an offer in. I wasn't prepared to put an offer in under those conditions. I was told that I could hear the engine running, possibly, if I made arrangements during the week. That was exactly my understanding of my phone call making this appointment.

Needless to say I didn't put an offer in and so did 200+ miles and left with a real feeling of bad taste with the broker. Am I just being a bit Victor Meldrew or would you spend tens of thousands of pounds on something you hadn't properly viewed?

I have done that too. Driven over half of the country to view a boat that had impressive looking pictures and the owner assuring me "it"s straight out of the box mate" only to find that the pictures were long out of date and the boat should have been in a box (of bits)!

Regarding Kingfisher engines.I once heard a visiting boat with a very unusual sounding engine.It sounded very busy even at tickover and reminded me of the second movement of Tchaikovsky's symphony no4, with very rapid pizzicato strings.Asked the owner what the engine was and was told it was a Chinese Kingfisher.

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Asked the owner what the engine was and was told it was a Chinese Kingfisher.

Our chinese kingfisher (chingfisher) was I think an AJ Marine 295 CMA before it was swapped out for an Isuzu

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Didne said:

Boatfinderbrokerage couldn’t even be bothered to send an agent to show me round the two boats last week … they relied on the marina staff doing that instead, who were very pleasant but by their own admission knew absolutely nothing about the boats in question … I voiced that I was unimpressed by this …  ‘oh, if you come for a second viewing I expect they’ll turn up …. then they’ll know you’re serious’ … “They think I’m not serious ? … I’ve had to arrange for someone to care for my mum … it’s taken me an hour and a half to drive here … it’ll take me as long to drive back … and I’m not serious ?” … The owner of the beautiful boat thought perhaps the only reason they didn’t bother was because they knew he was going to be there anyway to show me his boat … But what about the other boat I went to see ? … the owner of that one wasn’t there, but the broker still didn’t turn up …

 

 

so sorry to hear of your son’s tumour … I do hope the doctors were able to treat him and return him to full health … Big Hugs … xxx

 

 

 

 

Many thanks, 2+ years of surgery, Chemo and Radio therapy and he is 'all right now' (as well as he is ever going to be), he has just gone from 3 month 'check up scans' to 6 month 'check up scans' as, so far, 'nothing is returning'.

 

Thanks to BUPA (his treatment account currently stands at just over £1 million)

[Karen Lea Rainey]

I listed my boat with a local broker at the start of September this year,  no interest whatsoever for 4 weeks, I listed it on marketplace on Oct 6th, swamped with requests to view and questions etc, one of my potential buyers rang the broker but failed to get a reply/ answer on the tel phone. I then had a firm interested buyer travel over 100 miles to view the boat, the brokers website said opening hours on it, so 12 noon on a Sunday was thought to be acceptable.

I personally texted the broker to say a customer was coming at 12 noon, got no reply from that either.

Low and behold the buyer turned up at 12 noon, the site was closed even though the website says open from 10 till 3 on that day.

Buyer then rang the caretakers marina, number on gate, no answer, then the buyer rang me again to say he could see the boat through the fence but it was 50ft away.

The buyer left and went to  Mercia marina some 30 miles away still and purchased a narrowboat, I was fuming with the broker efforts and moved the boat away from them 2 days later.

 

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

I When we were looking for a boat recently there was one broker (can’t remember which one and they may have changed their terms by now) who said on their website something along the lines of ‘ if you make an offer under the asking price that is accepted, and the survey shows work required, don’t expect a further reduction if the work required is less than you already have got off the asking price because you have already had £X off the asking price’. That broker had a 10% deposit scheme and it was up to them to decide if the survey report was significant enough for a reduction in accepted offer. Basically they had your 10% and you were not getting it back so you might as well carry on and buy the boat!

I wouldn’t even look at their boat sales adverts.

 

eta - just checked, it was, and still is, Nationwide Boat Sales (formally Great Haywood Boat Sales)

 

I bought my boat through GHBS almost 10 years ago and if this clause was in use then they didn't invoke it.

 

I offered a reduced price, subject to survey and it was accepted. The survey revealed the combi wasn't working and I negotiated a further £2k off the agreed price. Then when I brought the boat home and plugged it in, the combi worked!

 

I reckon the shore bollard at the dry dock had tripped.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I agree completely.

 

Many inland waterways brokers use the BMF code of practice Sales Contracts, which does include the Force majeure clause (clause 11) so should something serious (lose job, have heart attack etc) arise then the buyer is well within their rights to require the return of the deposit. If they have simply changed their mind as they have found another boat - tough - you lose your deposit.

 

 

There is also a lengthy clause (available to both parties to read before signing) allowing the negotiation of a reduction in price &/or the deposit return. If buyers are not prepared to read the small prony of what they are signing then it is no wonder they feel aggrieved when the clauses they have agree to are implemented.

 

Extract from BMF contract :

 

1.      Defects

1.1. If the inspection, survey or sea trial reveals any major defects in the Vessel, its machinery, gear or equipment which affects the operational integrity of the Vessel or her systems or renders her unseaworthy, and such defect was not disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to the signing of this Agreement, or if there are any deficiencies in the inventory prepared and attached to this Agreement, for which the aggregate cost of rectification by a competent and reputable shipyard or replacements (on a like for like basis, discounted to second hand prices) is collectively equal to or exceeds 5% of the Purchase Price then the Purchaser may give written notice to the Seller or the Broker within 7 days of completion of the inspection, survey and sea trial, whichever is the later, specifying the defects and/or deficiencies and including a copy of all relevant extracts from a surveyor’s or adviser’s report, and either:

1.1.1. reject the Vessel, or

1.1.2. require the Seller to make good the defects and/or deficiencies or make a sufficient reduction in the Purchase Price to enable the Purchaser to do so.  In this case all agreed items of work shall be completed without undue delay and shall be carried out to the express requirements contained in the Notice served by the Purchaser.

For the purposes of this Clause 5.1 and Clause 5.1.2 "completion of survey" shall mean the date of receipt by the Purchaser of a written or emailed survey report.

1.2. If the Purchaser serves notice under Clause 5.1.1, or Clause 5.1.2, and; 

1.2.1. the Seller fails within 21 days after service of the notice to agree to make good the defects or deficiencies specified in the notice without unreasonable delay or; 

1.2.2. the parties shall not have agreed within 14 days after service of the notice upon the amount by which the Purchase Price is to be reduced

THEN this Agreement shall be rescinded and the Deposit paid shall be refunded to the Purchaser in accordance with Clause 8.

 

The problem with the BMF pre purchase contracts is that they cover all aspects of boats/vessels from boats costing a few hundred, to vessels costing many many millions of Pounds and often the the wording is confusing to the buyer.

 Maybe there should be separate  contracts more appropriate to specific vessels and waterways. 

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

The problem with the BMF pre purchase contracts is that they cover all aspects of boats/vessels from boats costing a few hundred, to vessels costing many many millions of Pounds and often the the wording is confusing to the buyer.

 Maybe there should be separate  contracts more appropriate to specific vessels and waterways. 

 

Most inland waterways brokers are members of the BMF and use the standard sales contract.

 

I cannot see what is 'difficult to understand' it all seems to be written in plian English.

 

What is difficult to understand in this :

 

 

1.      Defects

1.1. If the inspection, survey or sea trial reveals any major defects in the Vessel, its machinery, gear or equipment which affects the operational integrity of the Vessel or her systems or renders her unseaworthy, and such defect was not disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to the signing of this Agreement, or if there are any deficiencies in the inventory prepared and attached to this Agreement, for which the aggregate cost of rectification by a competent and reputable shipyard or replacements (on a like for like basis, discounted to second hand prices) is collectively equal to or exceeds 5% of the Purchase Price then the Purchaser may give written notice to the Seller or the Broker within 7 days of completion of the inspection, survey and sea trial, whichever is the later, specifying the defects and/or deficiencies and including a copy of all relevant extracts from a surveyor’s or adviser’s report, and either:

1.1.1. reject the Vessel, or

1.1.2. require the Seller to make good the defects and/or deficiencies or make a sufficient reduction in the Purchase Price to enable the Purchaser to do so.  In this case all agreed items of work shall be completed without undue delay and shall be carried out to the express requirements contained in the Notice served by the Purchaser.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

Hopefully your highlighting confusion as the first paragraph could be deemed confusing to some and highlights what I said about different contracts for different waterways, offshore, inland, commercial boats, super-yachts, narrowboats.

 How many places are referred to as “Shipyards” on the canal system😂

 Maybe you could cut’n’paste both the BMF Conditional and Un-Conditional sale agreement contracts for people to see? (Please no)

Edited November 6, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth