Insurance vs LiFePO4 batteries (I'm stuck)

[wakey_wake]

I'm insured with GJW.  I asked them if they needed to know about fitting LiFePO4 batteries, and eventually they got back to me and said their underwriters wanted it to be done by a professional.

 

Well that's going to triple the cost, or more. I'm quite capable of doing it myself without starting a fire.

 

What are my options?

1. Do it anyway, and not tell them? Bad because then I won't find out I wasn't insured until I claim - they'll wriggle out of it.
2. Insure with another company and tell them what I'm doing. But if they have the same response, I'm no better off and one insurance company less to try.
3. Insure with another company and not tell them what I'm doing. Then am I back at 1) ?
4. Possibly I can get a surveyor to look at the thing and officially "commission" it, for the insurer's benefit? This doesn't sound promising.

 

What kind of LFP system do I want? Not quite sure, probably a third battery bank and some B2B.
Anyway the details of LFP system aren't relevant until I can be sure I'll stay insured. 🙁

[Rob-M]

Did they qualify what a professional needs to qualify for them to install for you and them to insure...?  There are many "professionals" in the canal world who are next to useless.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

I'm insured with GJW.  I asked them if they needed to know about fitting LiFePO4 batteries, and eventually they got back to me and said their underwriters wanted it to be done by a professional.

 

Well that's going to triple the cost, or more. I'm quite capable of doing it myself without starting a fire.

 

What are my options?

1. Do it anyway, and not tell them? Bad because then I won't find out I wasn't insured until I claim - they'll wriggle out of it.
2. Insure with another company and tell them what I'm doing. But if they have the same response, I'm no better off and one insurance company less to try.
3. Insure with another company and not tell them what I'm doing. Then am I back at 1) ?
4. Possibly I can get a surveyor to look at the thing and officially "commission" it, for the insurer's benefit? This doesn't sound promising.

 

What kind of LFP system do I want? Not quite sure, probably a third battery bank and some B2B.
Anyway the details of LFP system aren't relevant until I can be sure I'll stay insured. 🙁

 

What ever you choose now that you have raised it with your insurers be sure you dont do anything that allows them to decline any claim.

 

A case in point (not boat related) was a guy who recently had a claim declined for fire damage to his home. LV declined on the basis he failed to declare previous flooding at his home.

 

The basis of the rejection was that if they had known about the previous flooding they would have declined to provide any insurance at all.

[Peanut]

If you could get a template design from a firm like Victron or other supplier, buy the bits, and prepare the installation. Then get it fitted to specification by a Marine Electrician, then that would, I think, comply with their requirement.  It might be cheaper than getting the whole thing done by a professional.

[nicknorman]

42 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

I'm insured with GJW.  I asked them if they needed to know about fitting LiFePO4 batteries, and eventually they got back to me and said their underwriters wanted it to be done by a professional.

 

Well that's going to triple the cost, or more. I'm quite capable of doing it myself without starting a fire.

 

What are my options?

1. Do it anyway, and not tell them? Bad because then I won't find out I wasn't insured until I claim - they'll wriggle out of it.
2. Insure with another company and tell them what I'm doing. But if they have the same response, I'm no better off and one insurance company less to try.
3. Insure with another company and not tell them what I'm doing. Then am I back at 1) ?
4. Possibly I can get a surveyor to look at the thing and officially "commission" it, for the insurer's benefit? This doesn't sound promising.

 

What kind of LFP system do I want? Not quite sure, probably a third battery bank and some B2B.
Anyway the details of LFP system aren't relevant until I can be sure I'll stay insured. 🙁

IMO it is a mistake to give insurance co. Information that they haven’t asked for. Once you ask a question like that, the default answer will always be “no” as they probably don’t understand the issues and always want to minimise their risk. And having asked the question and received “no”, you are stuck.

Clearly the response you have received is completely irrational because the definition of a professional is someone who gets paid for the work. It carries no suggestion that the person is competent in the specified area. It is just silly, but now you have asked you are stuck.

 

Of course, what one should never do is dishonestly answer a question asked by the insurance co.

 

I would wait until the policy expires, renew with a different company (having checked the terms of the policy carefully) and then install the Li in a sensible and safe way.

[David Mack]

55 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

I'm insured with GJW.  I asked them if they needed to know about fitting LiFePO4 batteries, and eventually they got back to me and said their underwriters wanted it to be done by a professional.

When my wife and I bought our first house the mortgage came with a condition that we had to have the drains tested and if necessary repaired by a specialist company within 12 months.

Kelly's Directory showed that when the house was built in 1908 it was known as ''St. Margarets" (no house numbers then). So we did the work ourselves, and seriously considered setting up a company registered at Companies House with the name 'St. Margaret's Drainage Services' and the specific objective of repairing the drains at that one property. Can't get much more specialist than that!

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by David Mack

[rusty69]

I stupidly took the risk of asking my insurance company before installing my lithium cells. They said there were no implications of I did so, which I took to mean it was OK for me to do so. 

 

I would agree with Nick though. Why ask them in the first place. 

[Momac]

42 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

 

A case in point (not boat related) was a guy who recently had a claim declined for fire damage to his home. LV declined on the basis he failed to declare previous flooding at his home.

 

The basis of the rejection was that if they had known about the previous flooding they would have declined to provide any insurance at all.

This is correct.

The insurer will have refunded the premium paid.

House insurers ask about flood risk . You have to answer honestly. 

 

I have lithium batteries and no insurer has expressed concern about risk.

The batteries are in phones , tablets and a handheld vhf and some power tools.

[Naughty Cal]

5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

This is correct.

The insurer will have refunded the premium paid.

House insurers ask about flood risk . You have to answer honestly. 

 

I have lithium batteries and no insurer has expressed concern about risk.

The batteries are in phones , tablets and a handheld vhf and some power tools.

That's a very valid point. Home and vehicle insurers seem unbothered by lithium battery technology (for now). 

 

So why are boat insurers so keen? 

 

We informed our insurers when we switched the van to lithium and they were completely disinterested. 

[David Mack]

9 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

We informed our insurers when we switched the van to lithium and they were completely disinterested. 

Uninterested. They are certainly not 'disinterested'

[ditchcrawler]

19 minutes ago, MartynG said:

This is correct.

The insurer will have refunded the premium paid.

House insurers ask about flood risk . You have to answer honestly. 

 

I have lithium batteries and no insurer has expressed concern about risk.

The batteries are in phones , tablets and a handheld vhf and some power tools.

My insurance like I suspect all others ask that question, also land heave and the standard of door locks

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

This is correct.

The insurer will have refunded the premium paid.

House insurers ask about flood risk . You have to answer honestly. 

 

I have lithium batteries and no insurer has expressed concern about risk.

The batteries are in phones , tablets and a handheld vhf and some power tools.

 

And the reality is that lithium batteries in portable devices tend to be of some chemistry far more volatile than LiFePO4. Lots of electric bikes, scooters, hover boards, vapes etc going on fire and burning houses down, none of them have LiFePO4 batteries.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Uninterested. They are certainly not 'disinterested'

 

But with the evolution of language, disinterested is beginning to mean the same as uninterested as so many people use the two as synonyms. 

 

Disappointingly.

 

 

2 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

What are my options?

1. Do it anyway, and not tell them? Bad because then I won't find out I wasn't insured until I claim - they'll wriggle out of it.

 

The obvious answer is don't claim in the first place then. Do it well and if you are confident you dunnit right, there won't be any claim will there?

 

Far better to avoid the incident than have it and try to get paid out. 

 

Bear in mind the main point of insurance is to open the gate to getting a boat licence.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by MtB
Grammar

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

That's a very valid point. Home and vehicle insurers seem unbothered by lithium battery technology (for now). 

 

So why are boat insurers so keen? 

Not sure they are keen.

I don't recall being asked about lithium batteries on boat  insurance renewal,

It is reasonable for insurers to expect  things to be correctly fitted , whatever those things may be.

 

 

[peterboat]

I told my insurance (craftinsure) that I was going to convert to electric drive, I detailed the conversion including the the Lifepo4s, they noted it down and that was it. They already cover some electric boats so I expect they know what they are at.

[wakey_wake]

4 hours ago, Rob-M said:

Did they qualify what a professional needs to qualify for them to install for you and them to insure...?  There are many "professionals" in the canal world who are next to useless.

 

Quite possibly their requirement was more specific, but I filed it under "no go with this insurance company" and forgot the details, sorry.

I'm not in a huge rush, and there is no point telling them that in 11.9 months they won't get the renewal.

 

 

4 hours ago, M_JG said:

What ever you choose now that you have raised it with your insurers be sure you dont do anything that allows them to decline any claim.

2 hours ago, MtB said:

The obvious answer is don't claim in the first place then. Do it well and if you are confident you dunnit right, there won't be any claim will there?

Far better to avoid the incident than have it and try to get paid out. 

Bear in mind the main point of insurance is to open the gate to getting a boat licence.

 

MtB is right, best not to have to claim, but if I get a theft / tree falls on it / smeejit crashes into it then I don't want to fall foul of what M_JG says.

I know that some (most?) insurance companies are tricky devils.

 

The gate to a boat licence is essential, but boat insurance is so much cheaper than car insurance that I didn't think to get 3rd party only. Theft and idiot damage seem worth having.

 

 

4 hours ago, Peanut said:

If you could get a template design from a firm like Victron or other supplier, buy the bits, and prepare the installation. Then get it fitted to specification by a Marine Electrician, then that would, I think, comply with their requirement.  It might be cheaper than getting the whole thing done by a professional.

 

That is essentially my process, but more granular. I don't want an expensively blue box, and I don't want to pay someone else to install it.

 

 

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

IMO it is a mistake to give insurance co. Information that they haven’t asked for. [...] And having asked the question and received “no”, you are stuck.

[...]

I would wait until the policy expires, renew with a different company (having checked the terms of the policy carefully) and then install the Li in a sensible and safe way.

Yes, exactly. It's irrational, or driven by business motives not aligned with the customer's needs. Time for a different insurer and GJW have to go in my Mr Hanky list of naughty companies.

I made a similar mistake re: anodes and also need to escape the consequences of that.

 

Thanks for confirming my plan 3) "Insure with another company and not tell them what I'm doing. Then am I back at 1) ?"

except I'm not back at 1) because I don't ask the new insurer what they allow.

 

I forgot to mention that it's BSS renewal right before insurance renewal, so that should keep them happy and help me be honestly covered.

 

 

3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I stupidly took the risk of asking my insurance company before installing my lithium cells. They said there were no implications of I did so, which I took to mean it was OK for me to do so. 

 

I would agree with Nick though. Why ask them in the first place. 

 

Cool!  Which insurer?

 

 

34 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I told my insurance (craftinsure) that I was going to convert to electric drive, I detailed the conversion including the the Lifepo4s, they noted it down and that was it. They already cover some electric boats so I expect they know what they are at.

This was your DIY? Thanks for that. 👍

[rusty69]

6 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

Cool!  Which insurer?

GJW. 

[blackrose]

12 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

I'm insured with GJW.  I asked them if they needed to know about fitting LiFePO4 batteries, 

🙁

 

Well that was your first mistake. If they didn't have any clause or exemption in the existing policy then your were already covered. What you've done is made them aware of something that you didn't need to and now you've given yourself a load of extra hassle and expense.

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

IMO it is a mistake to give insurance co. Information that they haven’t asked for. Once you ask a question like that, the default answer will always be “no” as they probably don’t understand the issues and always want to minimise their risk. And having asked the question and received “no”, you are stuck.

 

 

Precisely 

[Momac]

47 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Well that was your first mistake. If they didn't have any clause or exemption in the existing policy then your were already covered. What you've done is made them aware of something that you didn't need to and now you've given yourself a load of extra hassle and expense.

 

I couldn't agree more. 

 

It also alerts underwriters that there is another risk out there that they should consider. It gives the impression that boat owners themselves perceive a risk. Boat owners know  a lot more about boats compared to underwriters. 

 

There is no surprise  at all in the insurers/underwriters response . The underwriters know about this  now. If other people make the same enquiry it will be noted again until underwriters decide to take some action like asking for  extra premium for boats with batteries of this type. 

 

 

[Ewan123]

[Deleted]

Edited November 5, 2023 by Ewan123

[peterboat]

9 hours ago, wakey_wake said:

 

Quite possibly their requirement was more specific, but I filed it under "no go with this insurance company" and forgot the details, sorry.

I'm not in a huge rush, and there is no point telling them that in 11.9 months they won't get the renewal.

 

 

 

MtB is right, best not to have to claim, but if I get a theft / tree falls on it / smeejit crashes into it then I don't want to fall foul of what M_JG says.

I know that some (most?) insurance companies are tricky devils.

 

The gate to a boat licence is essential, but boat insurance is so much cheaper than car insurance that I didn't think to get 3rd party only. Theft and idiot damage seem worth having.

 

 

 

That is essentially my process, but more granular. I don't want an expensively blue box, and I don't want to pay someone else to install it.

 

 

Yes, exactly. It's irrational, or driven by business motives not aligned with the customer's needs. Time for a different insurer and GJW have to go in my Mr Hanky list of naughty companies.

I made a similar mistake re: anodes and also need to escape the consequences of that.

 

Thanks for confirming my plan 3) "Insure with another company and not tell them what I'm doing. Then am I back at 1) ?"

except I'm not back at 1) because I don't ask the new insurer what they allow.

 

I forgot to mention that it's BSS renewal right before insurance renewal, so that should keep them happy and help me be honestly covered.

 

 

 

Cool!  Which insurer?

 

 

This was your DIY? Thanks for that. 👍

I had no choice about telling my insurance company 36 Lifepo4s and an electric motor plus a generator is a big change along with 5kws of solar! If something goes wrong I need paying for it all

[MtB]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

It also alerts underwriters that there is another risk out there that they should consider. It gives the impression that boat owners themselves perceive a risk.

 

This is very much how it works I suspect.

 

So its all very circular. Boaters start thinking their insurance companies might fuss about <whatever> so start calling and emailing to ask. Insurance companies notice boaters are asking and start writing exclusions or loading their premia in response, as that seems to be what the boaters are expecting. The perfect business model. 

 

 

So, just stop asking!!!

 

[magnetman]

 

Its also interesting to consider why people think the batteries are dangerous in the first place. 

 

Its not like lead acid batteries are harmless and never caused a fire or injury. 

 

Why do people think lithium batteries are dangerous? 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Why do people think lithium batteries are dangerous? 

I heard a story about one catching fire once, and the poor fellow had to chuck it overboard.

[magnetman]

 

 

Having said that I have had a thermal runaway meltdown of a lithium jump start pack (got it out of the engine room when it started smoking then 30 seconds later a massive flameout. 

 

Never had any problems with lead acid but have heard of stories where the tops blow orf which seems a little discombobulating. 

 

I didn't throw it in the River I hung it orf the side of the boat (steel boat) although the remains of the cells did eject the casing and fell in. 

 

Fair burnt the paint. 

 

 

 

 

Not ideal. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by magnetman