Licences

[magnetman]

I bet the Old Ford XR4x4 is going up in value. 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Midnight said:

Even with the increases boat licenses are good value compared to other leisure activities or of you live aboard compared to rents, mortgages and council tax. I'm not rich, will find it tougher and will have to cut down on something else, but that's my choice.

 

 

 

 

I agree they’re good value for me too, and I’ll still manage to get by with the coming increases.

Like you it’s my choice,

And like you I get value from my license because I use it, I travel,
What I don’t understand is the view from those on here who don’t use the waterways to any extent or don’t hold a CRT license, yet have strong views on pushing up prices,

 

the canals are clearly becoming littered with dumped boaters because moorings (for some) are no longer good value for money,

so next stage is nonpayment of the license because (for some) it’ll no longer be good value for money,

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

I agree

 

There seem to be quite a few folks on this forum who think the C&RT charges are bargain price and they seem to be very much supportive of the C&RT proposed price increases extra over inflation.

These  are obviously not financially stretched people (quite the opposite) and I think it is evident they want to see  an outcome where  less well of people are driven off the canals .

 

My view is if the C&RT are pricing themselves out of the market and people will look to other waters on which to keep a boat or they may look to other more manageable activities with more manageable costs  such as the motorhome you have.  It seems to me C&RT would like to see fewer boats or ideally  no boats at all.

Those who support the price increases extra over inflation are also supporting a reduction in boat numbers and so they re effectively supporting  the gradual  demise of the C&RT managed canals as navigable waterways.

 

 

 

 

You can't get much less well off than me, and it won't be the licence increases that gets me off the cut. It'll be the endless lock closures and water shortages, and the noise and misbehaviour of other boaters. The former, without extra money, can't be sorted. Nowt to be done about the later.

[magnetman]

Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

You can't get much less well off than me, 

 

It must be terrible not having a house and relying on a small unsatisfactory boat to live in. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I agree they’re good value for me too, and I’ll still manage to get by with the coming increases.

Like you it’s my choice,

And like you I get value from my license because I use it, I travel,
What I don’t understand is the view from those on here who don’t use the waterways to any extent or don’t hold a CRT license, yet have strong views on pushing up prices,

 

the canals are clearly becoming littered with dumped boaters because moorings (for some) are no longer good value for money,

so next stage is nonpayment of the license because (for some) it’ll no longer be good value for money,

 

 

 

 

This whole story of licence increases is because there is a move away from taxpayer subsidy for what is actually a pretty nice life (I did it for 12 yars) towards the user pays model. Or the taxpayer pays via benefits system IF the boat is really your residence and you can demonstrate suitable impecuniosity. 

 

 

 

It is sort of inevitable that this will happen given all the other prior itties for .gov spending. 

 

At the end of the day (and at the beginning) its pretty wicked just cruising about on a canal boat but someone else is subsidising it. Or at least they were until recently. 

 

The time has come for people to pay or seek assistance is they have recourse to state funds. 

 

It is all quite logical and not unexpected. 

 

Perhaps rather austere but these things happen and people adapt. 

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

It must be terrible not having a house and relying on a small unsatisfactory boat to live in. 

 

 

 

 

This whole story of licence increases is because there is a move away from taxpayer subsidy for what is actually a pretty nice life (I did it for 12 yars) towards the user pays model. Or the taxpayer pays via benefits system IF the boat is really your residence and you can demonstrate suitable impecuniosity. 

 

 

 

It is sort of inevitable that this will happen given all the other prior itties for .gov spending. 

 

At the end of the day (and at the beginning) its pretty wicked just cruising about on a canal boat but someone else is subsidising it. Or at least they were until recently. 

 

The time has come for people to pay or seek assistance is they have recourse to state funds. 

 

It is all quite logical and not unexpected. 

 

Perhaps rather austere but these things happen and people adapt. 

 

 

 

Yes the taxpayer, I’ve been a lifelong taxpayer too 👍

access to benefits is not as easy as you keep saying,

if/when I need money I have to go earn it,

I don’t want to be part of the benefit system,

being part of the benefit system is a reliance on the taxpayer,

 

 

CRT knew funding would reduce,

and, of course, CRT are still getting a significant sum from the government,

as has been said earlier in the thread, CRT should be capable of generating more income from other sources

 

[Arthur Marshall]

32 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

It must be terrible not having a house and relying on a small unsatisfactory boat to live in. 

 

Would be if I did, however I now live in a nice house and have a small scruffy boat to play with. But my only income these days is the OAP and a pittance of a civil service pension. The latter just about keeps the boat going.

It's partly about priorities. But if cruising possibilities are any worse than they've been the last few years, it really does stop being worth it. It's fine if you're a residential boater with no intention of travelling, but for the leisure boater it's the kiss of death.

Including the pandemic shutdown, it's now about four years since you could plan a month's trip with any certainty of getting home.

[magnetman]

55 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

You can't get much less well off than me, 

 

11 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

however I now live in a nice house and have a small scruffy boat to play with. 

 

Right. 

 

OK!

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

You can't get much less well off than me,

 

46 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I now live in a nice house and have a small scruffy boat to play with.

 

Nice house and a scruffy boat sounds very comfortably off indeed to me.

 

Very much like me actually. I have a nice house and a scruffy boat too. 

[Mike Todd]

22 hours ago, MtB said:

 

The Thames is an obvious candidate, where licences are charged by deck area and still noticeably more expensive than CRT even for a narrowboat. The other thing is possibly a mooring. I've an idea you can't CC on the Thames, you have to have a mooring too which will really make the pips squeak for any CRT CCer hoping to decamp to the Thames to avoid the CRT price rises. 

 

Does anyone know for sure if a mooring is required to get an annual Thames license? 

 

 

CC on the Thames is an altogether different concept. What you get is only a licence to navigate, given a public right oof navigation. The EA rarely owns the bank and so cannot offer any free or paid for moorings (with exceptions) Much of the river involves payment per night to a landowner, some are very keen to collect, others less so. Pot luck. There are some free ('public') moorings.

 

In recent years, groups of liveaboards have gathered in certain places, especially where the land is owned by the local council. Bowing to pressure from local residents (who have paid zillions for the perfect view of the river) some councils have taken what some would call draconian measures that need new by laws to enforce, whilst others might describe as preventing scroungers from taking what is not theirs by right. Judging by what we have seen in our recent trip down from Oxford to Brentford, most wannabe CCers have gone elsewhere. Notable exceptions include the tesco Mooring at Reading whi h remains much as it always was.

 

If you take these limitations into account then it makes the CaRT licence even better value for money for liveaboards than the above calculation.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

CC on the Thames is an altogether different concept. What you get is only a licence to navigate, given a public right oof navigation.

 

I think you mean that your boat becomes registered, which then allows you to use your public rights of navigation.

 

Even the EA call it a registartion and it is not subject to VAT, whilst a licence is subject to VAT.

 

There has been a lot of discussion within C&RT about the VAT on River registrations, (acknowledging that the EA registration does not attact VAT) particularly as C&RT now call it a 'Rivers only Licence' which is both technically and legally incorrect.

 

 

[Momac]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Your opinion is tosh in my opinion. I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are.

 

 

I did say in my earlier post that you are entitled to your opinion.

You don't have to agree with me but there is no need to use insulting language. 

The use of insults doesn't do you any credit.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

I did say in my earlier post that you are entitled to your opinion.

You don't have to agree with me but there is no need to use insulting language. 

The use of insults doesn't do you any credit.

he’s probably had a day off work and hit the sauce a little early. 

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

I did say in my earlier post that you are entitled to your opinion.

You don't have to agree with me but there is no need to use insulting language. 

The use of insults doesn't do you any credit.

 

 

If you think someone calling your opinion "tosh" is insulting you personally, then I think you've led a very sheltered life.

 

 

[Naughty Cal]

4 hours ago, magnetman said:

I bet the Old Ford XR4x4 is going up in value. 

 

 

XR4i

 

But yes it most certainly is. 

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think you mean that your boat becomes registered, which then allows you to use your public rights of navigation.

 

Even the EA call it a registartion and it is not subject to VAT, whilst a licence is subject to VAT.

 

There has been a lot of discussion within C&RT about the VAT on River registrations, (acknowledging that the EA registration does not attact VAT) particularly as C&RT now call it a 'Rivers only Licence' which is both technically and legally incorrect.

 

 

Indeed.

 

I was trying to focus on the fact that EA on the Thames does not buy you as much as CaRT on the canals  (and some rivers) by quite a margin.

[Naughty Cal]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

What owners estimate their boats (or motorhomes) are worth and what they can actually sell them for are often two different things. Owners are slightly biased when it comes to valuations of their property after all.

I agree.

 

Although we have a cash dealer offer if we want to take it,  so we pretty much know what ours is worth at trade price 😉

 

Helps of course that its a popular van, there are not many for sale and the wait for a new one is 18 months.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Naughty Cal

[Paul C]

6 hours ago, MartynG said:

 

I agree

 

There seem to be quite a few folks on this forum who think the C&RT charges are bargain price and they seem to be very much supportive of the C&RT proposed price increases extra over inflation.

These  are obviously not financially stretched people (quite the opposite) and I think it is evident they want to see  an outcome where  less well of people are driven off the canals .

 

My view is if the C&RT are pricing themselves out of the market and people will look to other waters on which to keep a boat or they may look to other more manageable activities with more manageable costs  such as the motorhome you have.  It seems to me C&RT would like to see fewer boats or ideally  no boats at all.

Those who support the price increases extra over inflation are also supporting a reduction in boat numbers and so they re effectively supporting  the gradual  demise of the C&RT managed canals as navigable waterways.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll disagree too, but on a slightly more subtle and well-thought out angle than simply labelling it by a rude word. 

 

Basically, a boat is a large investment of which the licence fee is a small component. So a % increase of the licence fee, all told, is a % of a small element. With the amount of change (of lifestyle) required to sell up and live somewhere else, I don't see a mass exodus from the canals, instead the licence fee increase will be tolerated by most, although obviously an above inflation increase is never going to be welcomed with open arms.

 

Yes, there will be a small number for which this is "the straw that breaks the camel's back" but sound economic models (price elasticity of demand) says this is small relative to the increase in CRT income.

 

With the proposed figures announced, its not a step change increase so I believe the above will hold true.

[magnetman]

3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

CC on the Thames is an altogether different concept. 

.....

If you take these limitations into account then it makes the CaRT licence even better value for money for liveaboards than the above calculation.

Another thing to take into account is that the River floods in winter. It depends what you want to do but it is not particularly forgiving and one can easily be stuck in one place for a long time. This can be complicated for people who want things like fresh water.

 

CC ing on the River can be done but it is not all that good and a lot of people work it out and go onto CRT water for winter. 

 

Gold licence prices for 2024 arrr going to be interesting. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Momac]

17 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I'll disagree too, but on a slightly more subtle and well-thought out angle than simply labelling it by a rude word. 

 

Basically, a boat is a large investment of which the licence fee is a small component. So a % increase of the licence fee, all told, is a % of a small element. With the amount of change (of lifestyle) required to sell up and live somewhere else, I don't see a mass exodus from the canals, instead the licence fee increase will be tolerated by most, although obviously an above inflation increase is never going to be welcomed with open arms.

 

Yes, there will be a small number for which this is "the straw that breaks the camel's back" but sound economic models (price elasticity of demand) says this is small relative to the increase in CRT income.

 

With the proposed figures announced, its not a step change increase so I believe the above will hold true.

You may well be proven to be correct . Time will tell.

I am already seeing the cracks appearing locally in the form of few boat movements this year which is just my own observation but also much greater number of boats for sale (but not selling).

I also see a lot more people not licensing their boat at all so not leaving the marina here. We don't need a license if we are not out on the river. Maybe this is all local to me and not necessarily true of the canals.

From my own perspective I hope to be retired from work next summer so plan to use the boat more to get better value. I do have the option to go coastal.

Thank you for the polite discussion .

 

 

[magnetman]

I think people will pay. 

 

There may be a very minor correction in tne price of used boats but surely that would be a Good Thing.

 

 

[peterboat]

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Totally agree. There are no increases for the type of low cost narrowboats poor people live on other than inflation linking. So all that ranting from MartynG above is just tosh. 

 

The increases for CCing £100k+ widebeams are slightly more reasonable but still only phased in slowly over five years.  Far too timid in my opinion give the parlous state of the CRT finances. 

Then maybe they should have increased narrowboats licenses the same as widebeams? That would have gained them more money, after all more NBs than widebeams, but of course it was all about devide and conquer and you fell for it

Edited October 13, 2023 by peterboat

[peterboat]

6 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I agree they’re good value for me too, and I’ll still manage to get by with the coming increases.

Like you it’s my choice,

And like you I get value from my license because I use it, I travel,
What I don’t understand is the view from those on here who don’t use the waterways to any extent or don’t hold a CRT license, yet have strong views on pushing up prices,

 

the canals are clearly becoming littered with dumped boaters because moorings (for some) are no longer good value for money,

so next stage is nonpayment of the license because (for some) it’ll no longer be good value for money,

 

 

There are a huge amount of boats on our moorings that haven't moved in years! They could easily if they cant be sold be abandoned or chopped up for scrap multiply that by a few hundred moorings and you have a financial disaster created by CRT! Instead of more money it's less money from license a moorings revenue! Wouldn't that be a shocker for all those people advocating bigger and bigger fees? For myself I am waiting for an available mooring off CRT waters

Edited October 13, 2023 by peterboat

[Midnight]

I think most of us will just suck it up. There will be a few casualties but their boats will be bought by others so no overall loss. Perhaps a rise in unlicensed boats and that's up to C&RT to sort. My fear is a rise in temperature between leisure boaters and CCers who could claim they pay more for mooring so are entitled to stay longer than the permitted durations.

[magnetman]

Mooring pins and hammers are handy weapons .

 

Splitting axes. Cordless chainsaws. Cabin shafts..

 

How long will it be before what were previously quite ordinary boaters get twelve gauge autoloaders ? 

Uzi nine millimeter. 

Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. 

 

And that sort of thing. 

 

I hate the idea of sucking anything up. 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by magnetman
militant canal boaters

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

56 minutes ago, Midnight said:

I think most of us will just suck it up. There will be a few casualties but their boats will be bought by others so no overall loss. Perhaps a rise in unlicensed boats and that's up to C&RT to sort. My fear is a rise in temperature between leisure boaters and CCers who could claim they pay more for mooring so are entitled to stay longer than the permitted durations.

I reckon you’re right,

I’ll be charging through if there’s a queue at a lock. 

 

😃

Edited October 13, 2023 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer