Licences

[wandering snail]

50 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Had a thought.

Some years ago I was a member of an amateur orchestra (The Slaithwaite Philharmonic) which promoted itself as The Symphony Orchestra of the Colne Valley.

It was a registered charity, and as such standard tax paying members could covenant their subscriptions, making them worth 20% more.

Could CRT do this with their licence fees?

Anybody know?

CRT is a charitable trust, not a charity. The difference is that it is run as a business but profits have to be ploughed back in to the trust's activities, rather than shareholders. I'm sure Allan can clarify further.

[Momac]

38 minutes ago, wandering snail said:

CRT is a charitable trust, not a charity. 

Sure about that ?

 

[magnetman]

These people seem to think it is a charity 

 

https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/top-10-charities-hold-14-of-the-sectors-wealth.html

 

(The CRT is there - right down the bottom at no.20)

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Mad Harold said:

 

Could CRT do this with their licence fees?

Anybody know?

 

The only conditions are the donors must make a declaration and the the donors must not benefit  significantly.

 

[wandering snail]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Sure about that ?

 

The clue's in the name?

[MtB]

Just now, wandering snail said:

The clue's in the name?

 

As in Canal and River TRUST, not Canal and River CHARITY, I guess you mean?

 

Mind you, from the quote from their website, even CRT themselves are confused about the difference. 

 

 

[Momac]

5 minutes ago, wandering snail said:

The clue's in the name?

Is it?

Then why does C&RT claim to be a charity?

[magnetman]

Wellbeing..

 

The Level Of Wellbeing (LOW) goes down significantly if people think they just take the money and run. 

 

The idea is to keep the LOW high. 

 

It is an illusion of mirrors and smoke.

 

 

Someone has a stately home in Oxon and a boat and a London house in a central postcode because of all this. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by magnetman

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, wandering snail said:

CRT is a charitable trust, not a charity. The difference is that it is run as a business but profits have to be ploughed back in to the trust's activities, rather than shareholders. I'm sure Allan can clarify further.

The difference between a charity and a charitable trust is not the issue here.

 

Despite being classified as a public body by the Office of National Statistics, CRT was recognised by HMRC as a charity under a derogation during 2022/23 (I assume that this continues to apply).

 

CRT makes full use of the ability to claim gift aid. As well as donations (Friends etc) and entry to museums, it claims gift aid on dividends from its Community Interest Company (CIC) which runs Waterside Moorings and Joint Ventures (the dividends are returned as donations).

 

A little while back CRT was chanelling lottery money via its CIC so that it could claim gift aid. This practice has ceased without explanation.

 

My view is that CRT is unabe to apply gift aid to licence fees because of the benefit received by the boater. If that were not the case they would already be doing it!

Edited October 10, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Momac]

25 minutes ago, magnetman said:

These people seem to think it is a charity 

 

https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/top-10-charities-hold-14-of-the-sectors-wealth.html

 

(The CRT is there - right down the bottom at no.20)

The National Trust is on that list  ad they do recover gift aid

To recover gift aid the donor needs need to be a UK taxpayer 

 

5 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

 

 

My view is that CRT is unabe to apply gift aid to licence fees because of the benefit received by the boater. If that were not the case they would already be doing it!

If you join the National Trust you get free entry to all its properties so that's a benefit

However maybe  in C&RT's case the maintenance of the canals is considered a significant benefit.

 

Anyway thank you for demonstrating C&RT is a charity .

 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

The National Trust is on that list  ad they do recover gift aid

To recover gift aid the donor needs need to be a UK taxpayer 

 

I would imagine the "gift" also needs to be a voluntary contribution, or it isn't a "gift". 

 

Unlike the CRT licence fee which is mandatory. (For those showing a CRT number that is.) 

 

If CRT made the licence optional, they could perhaps claim the gift aid too. 

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

The National Trust is on that list  ad they do recover gift aid

To recover gift aid the donor needs need to be a UK taxpayer 

 

Yes this gets awkward when charity shops ask 'are you a UK tax payer' and one has to say 'no' !

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Is it?

Then why does C&RT claim to be a charity?

 

They think people will link them with other charities (save a Tiger, Give money to feed a child  etc etc) and give more. They are actually a Limited commercial company with Charitable goals.

 

BIG difference which is why they try to hide their true staus !

 

The Trust received charitable status in April and received parliamentary approval in June.

Formation: 2 July 2012

Legal status: Charitable trust*

Registration no.: 1146792

Type: Non-governmental organisation

 

 

**  Charitable trusts in English law are a form of express trust dedicated to charitable goals. There are various advantages to charitable trust status, including exemption from most forms of tax and freedom for the trustees not found in other types of English trusts.

 

From companies house :

 

CANAL & RIVER TRUST, a company limited by guarantee with its registered office at First Floor North, Station House, 500 Elder Gate Milton Keynes MK9 1BB (Charity Number 1146792 and Company Number 07807276)

Edited October 10, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They are actually a Limited commercial company with Charitable goals.

 

BIG difference which is why they try to hide their true status !

 

Surely  all  registered charities have to be operated on a commercial basis otherwise they would probably go bust very quickly.

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

The National Trust is on that list  ad they do recover gift aid

To recover gift aid the donor needs need to be a UK taxpayer 

 

If you join the National Trust you get free entry to all its properties so that's a benefit

However maybe  in C&RT's case the maintenance of the canals is considered a significant benefit.

 

Anyway thank you for demonstrating C&RT is a charity .

 

The difference is that with the National Trust you are a member. Your membership subscription is treated as a donation.

 

[magnetman]

It is worth noting that there is Canal and River Trust and there is also Canal and River Trading CIC. These are two separate entities as Allan did allude to earlier. 

 

 

edit 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by magnetman
confusion

[Momac]

Just now, Allan(nb Albert) said:

The difference is that with the National Trust you are a member. Your membership subscription is treated as a donation.

 

 

I do get your point . Its the person who is the member of National Trust while in C&RT's case its the boat that is licensed.

C&RT would need to change to something like a personal membership subscription for boating members (eg. a skippers licence). Its not going to happen is it.

 

 

[sigsegv]

I was at the Shroppie Fly earlier and had a flick through a Waterways World issue dated April 2007, thinking it would be amusing to see the issues of the time. Now, this is *way* before 'my' time (though my parents bought a holiday boat in I think '05), so naturally I'm missing a great deal of context but I'd be remiss if I didn't post my findings in this thread.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by sigsegv

[magnetman]

I like the 'us lesser minnows' bit. 

 

Presumably there are also greater minnows.

 

 

Thanks for posting that !

[MtB]

10 hours ago, magnetman said:

I like the 'us lesser minnows' bit. 

 

Presumably there are also greater minnows.

 

 

Perhaps those would be the sticklebacks?! 

[cuthound]

On 07/10/2023 at 08:37, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

One thing I hope when the licence costs are released, is that it will be compulsory for all boats to display their licence, registration number and name. CaRT enforcement need to be stronger if any of this licence change is going to work, also they could indicate the type of licence with a ‘M’ or ‘C’ on the licence  to make it easier identifying boats that have paid. Not too difficult and not hard to comply with.

 

 

When I first got my EoG mooring I had to display a "Mooring Permit" which had a big green "M" printed on it and a code in smaller text showing the canal and mooring location.

 

These disappeared around the same time that CRT announced that you no longer needed to display your licence.

[cuthound]

On 07/10/2023 at 19:46, ditchcrawler said:

They need to second Sonny from the Bridgewater Canal 

 

And clone him until all the enforcement vacancies are filled.

[longy]

Apologies if this has been posted but in this link it shows the current fees for the next 5 years for home moorings and without home moorings.

Are these the official figures and if so for narrowboats who CC does it imply that year on year it will go up 5%  or by the percentage stated so year 1 5% year 2 10% so a total of 15% overall.

Here is the link 

Table: Annual increase for boats without a home mooring and for wide beam boats between 1 April 2024 and 1 April 2028

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/national-consultations

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by longy

[Arthur Marshall]

54 minutes ago, carp-addict said:

Apologies if this has been posted but in this link it shows the current fees for the next 5 years for home moorings and without home moorings.

Are these the official figures and if so for narrowboats who CC does it imply that year on year it will go up 5%  or by the percentage stated so year 1 5% year 2 10% so a total of 15% overall.

Here is the link 

Table: Annual increase for boats without a home mooring and for wide beam boats between 1 April 2024 and 1 April 2028

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/national-consultations

 

 

 

No, it means the Standard Licence Fee is going up by more than inflation every year for everyone, and for those who CC it's going up by an extra 5% of the new total fee the first year, by 10% the next etc, until a CC is paying what a moorer does + 25% on top.

If any of us were getting a licence increase of just 5% we'd all be very happy...

[longy]

56 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

No, it means the Standard Licence Fee is going up by more than inflation every year for everyone, and for those who CC it's going up by an extra 5% of the new total fee the first year, by 10% the next etc, until a CC is paying what a moorer does + 25% on top.

If any of us were getting a licence increase of just 5% we'd all be very happy...

So in theory assuming last year the licence was £1200 given a std 10% increase on the licence 5% above inflation plus the annual percentage increases for continuous cruisers am I right in thinking that by year 5 the licence fee will be £3850