Insurance claims in the event of sinking

[magnetman]

26 minutes ago, wandering said:

As I noticed the boat slowly sinking from directly below where I was standing, I managed to pull up next to an island where we (4 men happened to be on the island, thank goodness) opened the engine bay and observed water coming in from the weed hatch.

 

It was closed but didn't appear to be watertight. We tried to tighten it but because of the displacement, it proved impossible. We needed the boat to be higher so we could do that. By the time the man came from Beeston Marina with the pumps to help us, it was a little too late and water began to flow into the engine bay as a result of the starboard list. I don't know 100% for sure this is the problem as I'm not an expert but from observing the water flowing in from the weed hatch, I assume it needs a rubber gasket or something because it wasn't tight enough or watertight. Plus one of the men helping at the time, said that it is coming in from the weed hatch and no where else. 

 

When I left the canal and entered the river, I put the bilge pump on and water would come out (usually this would stop after less than a minute. I noticed after I left the marina until I reached the island, which is 10 minutes more or less, that when I put the pump on, the water wasn't stopping at all. Soon after, I noticed the exhaust fumes interacting with the water indicating I was getting lower. We couldn't see any obvious holes. I think because I was on a canal before where I would move slowly versus the speed of moving on the river sped up introduction of water into the bilge via the weed hatch. Speculation at this time though as I'm not an expert, just an educated guess 

 

 

 

The weed hatch does need a seal yes. Cutout pieces of those blue foam camping mats are good as it is a single piece.

 

Why did it not have a seal? It seems odd for a weed hatch to exist which does not have a seal as it is a basic part of the design and a requirement. 

 

I know it is a bit late to ask this sort of question and I'm sorry if it appears blunt. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wandering]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

The weed hatch does need a seal yes. Cutout pieces of those blue foam camping mats are good as it is a single piece.

 

Why did it not have a seal? It seems odd for a weed hatch to exist which does not have a seal as it is a basic part of the design and a requirement. 

 

I know it is a bit late to ask this sort of question and I'm sorry if it appears blunt. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'l be honest, I didn't know it was needed as it wasn't on it when I bought the boat and I hadn't had any issues or water ingress... until I did. 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, haggis said:

In our experience the boat could only be insured for what we paid for it until we got a professional revaluation as the price of boats had shot up.

I have been told this by both an insurance industry expert and by my current insurer. In the past insurers have been happy to increase the insured value at renewal by 10% or so on request to reflect inflation, but it seems that is no longer the case and you now need a valuation.

[blackrose]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Yes the weedhatch requires a rubber gasket between the 'body' and the lid, and the lid tightly screwed down onto the gasket.

 

Or more commonly self adhesive neoprene tape.

[Peanut]

A Loss Adjuster is employed by the insurance company to mitigate their loss. A Caims Manager is employed by a policy holder to help them get what they are entitled to under the policy. You pay them, but will most likely be worth their fee.

[LadyG]

4 hours ago, Peanut said:

A Loss Adjuster is employed by the insurance company to mitigate their loss. A Caims Manager is employed by a policy holder to help them get what they are entitled to under the policy. You pay them, but will most likely be worth their fee.

MtB has nailed it. 

 

OP is currently in the hands of the insurer, and though It might be worth  contacting a Claims Adjuster,  I don't think they can help. Citizens Advice offer limited legal advice.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by LadyG

[Peanut]

Indeed, MtB is correct, but there are other bit covered by the insurance which the OP may be entitled to, and the insurer may omit to remember.

[wandering]

“This text is from Canal Contracting. An engineer will be attending your boat between 07:30 and 09:00 on 31/08/2023” 

 

I was informed this engineer is an independent surveyor who I imagine isn’t 100% independent.   Do you think it’s worth meeting them?
 

I am quite scared now as I am disabled and fear I may end up destitute if the insurance company wants to pay me less and the surveyor values it as less than I paid… 
 

 

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

MtB has nailed it. 

 

OP is currently in the hands of the insurer, and though It might be worth  contacting a Claims Adjuster,  I don't think they can help. Citizens Advice offer limited legal advice.

 

Claims adjuster? I’m a bit lost and not sure of the difference between adjuster and claims manager and all that jazz. I have mostly been dealing with the insurance company admins. 

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, wandering said:

Claims adjuster? I’m a bit lost and not sure of the difference between adjuster and claims manager and all that jazz. I have mostly been dealing with the insurance company admins. 

 

The insurance company will employ a local "loss adjuster" as their eyes and ears to inspect the boat and frankly, look for reasons and justifications to minimise (or worse, wriggle out of) their insurance obligations. You as a layman customer are inexperienced in the ways of the insurance business and in no position to protect your interests. So employing a "profit adjuster", "claims manager" or some other similarly-titled insurance industry professional to communicate with your insurer on your behalf may well turn out to be a Good Idea.

 

They will probably charge you a percentage of the claim payout but if they get you a 'full' or increased payout it could be well worth the money. 

 

I'd be inclined to wait and see what your insurance co says after the upcoming visit though, as some insurance companies are perfectly honourable and will give you a full payout of the insured value. 

 

Sadly I think you are a bit stuffed regarding the max insured value of £27k though. They will never pay out more than this but if they claim you were underinsured and reduce their payout accordingly, then a claims manager may well get this set aside. 

 

On the brighter side, it might well not be a total loss. It may well turn out the boat can, after re-floating, be cleaned up and you carry on living in it. I saw a boat sink here on the K&A and a day later it had been re-floated, all the wet stuff inside hung out on the hedge to dry out and the owner was back living aboard the next day. Your's is more extreme but the boat is probably structurally undamaged, so no reason not to clean it up and get it back into use.

 

If they declare it a total loss and pay you out the £27k then the insurance co becomes the owner. This will be a PITA to them and they may well sell it back to you for a pittance, in which case you can spend the £27k getting it cleaned up and back in use. Probably money well spent given what a fundamentally good boat it is. 

 

Final lesson is, if you succeed in getting the boat back in use, get an 'agreed value' insurance policy as the boat is clearly worth more than £27k  

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by MtB
Grammar

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, wandering said:

“This text is from Canal Contracting. An engineer will be attending your boat between 07:30 and 09:00 on 31/08/2023” 

 

I was informed this engineer is an independent surveyor who I imagine isn’t 100% independent.   Do you think it’s worth meeting them?
 

I am quite scared now as I am disabled and fear I may end up destitute if the insurance company wants to pay me less and the surveyor values it as less than I paid… 
 

 

Claims adjuster? I’m a bit lost and not sure of the difference between adjuster and claims manager and all that jazz. I have mostly been dealing with the insurance company admins. 

You will be dealing with the insurance  company who have appointed a qualified person,  in this case a boat surveyor, whose task is to assess the value of the boat at the time of the Incident. 

This is the  figure that will be compared to the amount you declared when you paid your insurance.

If his figure is greater than the amount you agreed when you took out the policy, then you lose out because you were under insured.

For those who, like me have overvalued their boat, (for whatever reason) if I had a full loss i could either accept the insurance company's valuation, or I could contest it.

In order to do this I would have to pay for.my own surveyor. The terms Loss Adjuster and Claims Adjuster are just terms used to identify their respective roles, one reports to the insurance  company and the other reports to the claimant.

 

 

 

 

[Peanut]

Other terms in the insurance may grant you accommodation while the boat is being fixed, and something for loss of possessions, but you will need to read the policy document. That is where further haggling may come in, particularly as it was your home. 

[wandering]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The insurance company will employ a local "loss adjuster" as their eyes and ears to inspect the boat and frankly, look for reasons and justifications to minimise (or worse, wriggle out of) their insurance obligations. You as a layman customer are inexperienced in the ways of the insurance business and in no position to protect your interests. So employing a "profit adjuster", "claims manager" or some other similarly-titled insurance industry professional to communicate with your insurer on your behalf may well turn out to be a Good Idea.

 

They will probably charge you a percentage of the claim payout but if they get you a 'full' or increased payout it could be well worth the money. 

 

I'd be inclined to wait and see what your insurance co says after the upcoming visit though, as some insurance companies are perfectly honourable and will give you a full payout of the insured value. 

 

Sadly I think you are a bit stuffed regarding the max insured value of £27k though. They will never pay out more than this but if they claim you were underinsured and reduce their payout accordingly, then a claims manager may well get this set aside. 

 

On the brighter side, it might well not be a total loss. It may well turn out the boat can, after re-floating, be cleaned up and you carry on living in it. I saw a boat sink here on the K&A and a day later it had been re-floated, all the wet stuff inside hung out on the hedge to dry out and the owner was back living aboard the next day. Your's is more extreme but the boat is probably structurally undamaged, so no reason not to clean it up and get it back into use.

 

If they declare it a total loss and pay you out the £27k then the insurance co becomes the owner. This will be a PITA to them and they may well sell it back to you for a pittance, in which case you can spend the £27k getting it cleaned up and back in use. Probably money well spent given what a fundamentally good boat it is. 

 

Final lesson is, if you succeed in getting the boat back in use, get an 'agreed value' insurance policy as the boat is clearly worth more than £27k  

 

 

 

 

Gotcha. My ideal scenario is they get it out the water, pay me enough to get it dry and fixed up. Thanks for this info. Didn’t realise claims manager would be a third party acting on my behalf. I don’t necessarily want more than 27k if I can get the Marina to help me fix it back up for less than that price. 

[HenryFreeman]

I don't have much to add to this thread other than really sorry to hear about your boat. I hope everything works out for you and you get it all fixed and cleaned and running. Good luck to you 🤞

[wandering]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You will be dealing with the insurance  company who have appointed a qualified person,  in this case a boat surveyor, whose task is to assess the value of the boat at the time of the Incident. 

This is the  figure that will be compared to the amount you declared when you paid your insurance.

If his figure is greater than the amount you agreed when you took out the policy, then you lose out because you were under insured.

For those who, like me have overvalued their boat, (for whatever reason) if I had a full loss i could either accept the insurance company's valuation, or I could contest it.

In order to do this I would have to pay for.my own surveyor. The terms Loss Adjuster and Claims Adjuster are just terms used to identify their respective roles, one reports to the insurance  company and the other reports to the claimant.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this break down. Really helpful. Ta. Would be lost without these forums!! 

5 minutes ago, Peanut said:

Other terms in the insurance may grant you accommodation while the boat is being fixed, and something for loss of possessions, but you will need to read the policy document. That is where further haggling may come in, particularly as it was your home. 

 There is a personal effects section saying they will pay me £812 for my things which is nothing considering my laptop alone was 2k 😭😭 thankfully that was the only “expensive” item along with my iPad on the boat but my sofa will be ruined, fridge potentially, batteries, solar controller... Glad I had the ability to get my electric Brompton bike and battery off in time cause that was 3k! I may have to haggle a bit more, let’s see how generous they are

Edited August 28, 2023 by wandering

[john.k]

In general ,insurers prefer to repair rather than give a cash payout .........there are several reasons for this .

[wandering]

6 minutes ago, john.k said:

In general ,insurers prefer to repair rather than give a cash payout .........there are several reasons for this .

Yes I believe from what the insurer has told me the surveyor will come up with a rough estimate for the cost of repairs which I can get done at red hill marina 

[LadyG]

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

I have been told this by both an insurance industry expert and by my current insurer. In the past insurers have been happy to increase the insured value at renewal by 10% or so on request to reflect inflation, but it seems that is no longer the case and you now need a valuation.

Or a different company. 

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, wandering said:

Thanks for this break down. Really helpful. Ta. Would be lost without these forums!! 

 There is a personal effects section saying they will pay me £812 for my things which is nothing considering my laptop alone was 2k 😭😭 thankfully that was the only “expensive” item along with my iPad on the boat but my sofa will be ruined, fridge potentially, batteries, solar controller... Glad I had the ability to get my electric Brompton bike and battery off in time cause that was 3k! I may have to haggle a bit more, let’s see how generous they are

 

Things like clothes, laptop, Ipad, books, tools etc are 'personal possessions' whilst things like the Fridge, batteries, sofa, solar panels etc are all 'part of the boat'.

 

I know its a bit "stable door- horse gone" but many of us (particularly liveaboards whose whole 'life'is aboard) now have many thousands of pounds of personal possessions on board and it is always worth checking the cover and increasing it to a more realistic level.

I have this year increased our Personal possessions to (from memory) £15,000 and we are not liveaboard.

 

It is worth spending a bit of time listing and 'costing out' everything that you have on the boat that would not normally be sold with the boat, these will be your personal possessions and it really is surprising what it all adds up to.

[Lady M]

For non-liveaboards, items taken between house and boat should be covered by the all risks section of the house contents policy, though it is worth checking that higher value items are within any 'maximum per item' limit.

[wandering]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Things like clothes, laptop, Ipad, books, tools etc are 'personal possessions' whilst things like the Fridge, batteries, sofa, solar panels etc are all 'part of the boat'.

 

I know its a bit "stable door- horse gone" but many of us (particularly liveaboards whose whole 'life'is aboard) now have many thousands of pounds of personal possessions on board and it is always worth checking the cover and increasing it to a more realistic level.

I have this year increased our Personal possessions to (from memory) £15,000 and we are not liveaboard.

 

It is worth spending a bit of time listing and 'costing out' everything that you have on the boat that would not normally be sold with the boat, these will be your personal possessions and it really is surprising what it all adds up to.

Aye this experience has been a very expensive and traumatic lesson. Think I was a bit too complacent as a newbie but they do say experience is the best teacher… 😅

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, wandering said:

Aye this experience has been a very expensive and traumatic lesson. Think I was a bit too complacent as a newbie but they do say experience is the best teacher… 😅

 

My experience in life is that one of the best teachers of life experiences is the ol' bank account. A lesson that leaves a big hole in it is a lesson well learned. The bigger the hole, the better one learns the lesson.

 

The first time I realised this was back in the late 70s when I started a business with someone as a partnership. Boy, that was expensive! 

 

 

 

[cuthound]

16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But they will never, never pay oiut the full amount on an over insured boat.

This is normally made clear on any quotations that you have, with a warning not to over insure.

 

But they will never, never pay oiut the full amount on an over insured boat.

This is normally made clear on any quotations that you have, with a warning not to over insure.

 

Indeed, they will not pay out anything over the market value 

 

Being aware of rising boat prices, I contacted my insurer two years ago to discuss it with them before renewal. They said they were happy to increase (and would payout on as they agreed the market value had on average increased by this) the insured sum by 10% or £10k, whichever was the greater. However if I wanted to increase the insured sum by more than this then I would need to submit a valuation survey from a reputable surveyor.

 

Last year the BSC inspector suggested that I was still under insured, so I contacted the insurance company again to discuss a further increase in the insured value. This time they agreed a 10% increase, with no option of a £10k increase because the market had increased by that amount, again if I wanted to further increase the insured sum I would need a valuation survey.

[Tacet]

16 hours ago, MtB said:

 

You clearly haven't read the thread. We are discussing boat insurance.

 

 

It's an inaccurate statement (insurers will not pay out more than the historic purchase price) for boats too.

 

It's generally fair to say that the insured should not gain/benefit from the insured event - and in the case of a write off, that is measured by its market value.  The price paid might give some indication of value - but it's not a ceiling

16 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Quite. House insurance is on an 'agreed value' basis.

 

 

Agreed value for house insurance would be most unusual; how would it work for a smaller loss?  The sum  insured is usually the maximum payout and also used for averaging when underinsured- not a guaranteed fixed payment.

[pearley]

7 hours ago, wandering said:

Thanks for this break down. Really helpful. Ta. Would be lost without these forums!! 

 There is a personal effects section saying they will pay me £812 for my things which is nothing considering my laptop alone was 2k 😭😭 thankfully that was the only “expensive” item along with my iPad on the boat but my sofa will be ruined, fridge potentially, batteries, solar controller... Glad I had the ability to get my electric Brompton bike and battery off in time cause that was 3k! I may have to haggle a bit more, let’s see how generous they are

With our insurers, Craftinsure, anything over £250 has to be individually declared, and the premium increased accordingly, to be covered.

[Troyboy]

I hope I am wrong but using a boat with a weed hatch that has no gasket and is loose might be seen by insurers as the owner being somewhat negligent. You are about to find out how good your insurers are , hopefully they won't try and wriggle out of paying .