Help understanding energy systems

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

 

You may think that but reality is somewhat different.

 

Obviously no experience of many canal "professionals" then. He will learn, either by taking notice if what he has been told or via his  wallet.

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Sorry but this just doesn’t make sense to me. If that boat you’re talking about was ‘better than most’ and not able to enter the water then surely the boat builder who built it is not a boat builder at all and shouldn’t be in business. 
Are you suggesting that all new boats come with problems, or is this just one a few minority boats?

In my mind buying a new boat with all the electrics, plumbing, heating done by professionals should guarantee a problem free boat for at least a few years. But again I could be wrong, which is why I’m here 🙂 

As I understand it the hull, and engine install may be done by a hull builder, they vary from top of the range to lower end. It's engineering.

Painting is going to require a slot preferably in a controlled environment and of course it is worthwhile having a really good job to protect the steelwork. 

The hull needs to be insulated with foam, which is a pro job, so may be contracted out.

The boat will then need to be fitted out, sometimes this will be the same company, sometimes not, 

I was speaking to a top end fitter, traditional woodworking skills, with a workshop and all the specialist tools on site. Supplies would be delivered, so no waste of time there. He usually used contractors to fit the gas and electrics, while he did the woodwork. He reckoned three months. 

There are lots of opportunities for corner cutting/cost saving, just have a look around a few marinas, 

[Mr.T]

12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am sorry, but this reply is on par with your comment about potential gas problems. It is not supported out many years of experience of many different people. My personal view is just go ahead as you wish and if it all ends up in tears why should I or any other member worry.

 

What you don't seem to have grasped is that the narrowboat industry is by and large small companies or one man bands building each boat as a one-off. Even the"big boys" are not much better. There are some real horror stories out there - even to the extent of builders liquidating to avoid paying court imposed penalties.  All but a very few build down to a cost to a varying degree, so it is totally different to say the car or domestic appliance industries.

 

Please take note of all you have been told. No one here has anything to gain by feeding you duff information and when you are told the same by more than one member there is an excellent chance that what they say is true.

 

The gas problems comment was rectified to gas problem, that being an explosion. I then went on to say that I know this is unlikely if installed and maintained properly. I also said I wasn’t against having gas, just would rather not have it if possible.

 

Thanks for your comments though, they’ve been helpful. I will definitely do as much research as possible before deciding to buy new.

[Alan de Enfield]

39 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Sorry but this just doesn’t make sense to me. If that boat you’re talking about was ‘better than most’ and not able to enter the water then surely the boat builder who built it is not a boat builder at all and shouldn’t be in business. 
Are you suggesting that all new boats come with problems, or is this just one a few minority boats?

In my mind buying a new boat with all the electrics, plumbing, heating done by professionals should guarantee a problem free boat for at least a few years. But again I could be wrong, which is why I’m here 🙂 

 

It was able to 'enter the water' it is just that they could not find where water was entering the boat - it could have been rain leaking in thru a bad weld. a leaky window or .........

 

You repeatedly poo-poo, or refuse to accept, what long-time boaters are telling you. The posters that have replied to you probably have a combined experience of some 500 years of boating.

 

I wish you well, but, having asked for advice, unless to actually take it, I will not be surprised to see it al end in tears.

 

 

[Mr.T]

15 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

All new boats have snagging problems even the £300k narrowboats, that’s why a lot of the builders want them close at hand for the first couple of weeks, so they can sort them. Some boats have major snagging issues, some minor.

  I wouldn’t dismiss 2nd hand boats, especially if your thinking about spending over £200K on your first boat new build. You may not take to it, your circumstances could change, making living on board totally the wrong choice. You can loose a lot of money on new builds. So have a look at 2nd hand, you don’t need to spend a fortune to get what suits your needs compared to new. You may be pleasantly surprised to whats available with no waiting👍

Thanks. Totally get the argument for buying second hand. I’m not looking at spending anywhere near 200k on a boat. From the second hand boats I’ve seen online, they’re not that much cheaper than what I expect to pay for a new one. A new one being a sailaway lined as mentioned, I’ll finish most of the internal myself. But alot of the second hand boats don’t come with the energy systems that I would want so that would obviously cost to upgrade the boat. Fully understand that it might not be for me and I will lose some money if buying new, but I would expect a new boat with solar, lithium batteries etc to still sell for a good price.

[nicknorman]

42 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Sorry but this just doesn’t make sense to me. If that boat you’re talking about was ‘better than most’ and not able to enter the water then surely the boat builder who built it is not a boat builder at all and shouldn’t be in business. 
Are you suggesting that all new boats come with problems, or is this just one a few minority boats?

In my mind buying a new boat with all the electrics, plumbing, heating done by professionals should guarantee a problem free boat for at least a few years. But again I could be wrong, which is why I’m here 🙂 

It’s a jungle out there! One problem is that to set up as a boatbuilder, you need no experience or qualifications. Some come and go fairly quickly. A few years ago there was a bit of a thing going where caravan/motor home builders were branching out into boat fitting. It didn’t end particularly well because caravans are built to be light whereas boats can be built to be sturdy and heavy, amongst other things. In some ways you are proposing to become one of them, some skills in house fitting which you think are easily transferable to boat fitting

 

One problem with buying a new boat is that because the process takes a while, you get “sucked in” to the process and can’t easily escape either psychologically or financially. If you buy a lemon car, you can send it back a week later and a week after that, you get an identical model without the lemon bit. Not so in boat building where the processes take months or years and you can’t just say “this one has too many faults, build me another one”.

 

We did our research and bought new from a long established boatbuilder with a good reputation - he’s built around 200 boats. Of course I’d been boating on and off for decades before buying new. Nevertheless there were some stressors like 3 months late, not built to our specification and several teething problems one of which required the boat out of the water again. Overall it was a good experience but there are a lot of stories of bad experiences. Folk opposite us in the marina bought a cheap new boat to live on and first winter, the interior woodwork was covered in black mould. Maybe in part their fault for eg drying washing inside and not opening the windows enough, but also there was a fundamental problem with the insulation and fixed ventilation.

 

Lots of people do what you propose, with varying degrees of success. I think the forum consensus is that you seem to think it will be easy and all go to plan in a short timescale, whereas most people’s experiences refute that! So go ahead, but do please have your eyes wide open!

[Tracy D'arth]

15 hours ago, Mr.T said:

Apologies, I should’ve been abit clearer. I work in construction so fitting the boat out will be fairly straight forward. I don’t plan to live on board whilst doing the work. My plan would be to take a month, maybe two off work to complete the boat internally and carry on living with family. I think I would have the boat on land whilst this is being done so I’m assuming there would be power available? I have a large van so I’ll be able to get materials that way. There are parts of the fit out that I wont do such as installing the power systems, so I’ll be looking for someone local or willing to travel who knows what they’re doing with that sort of thing. I’ll be in the Reading area if you know anyone. Many thanks for the post, all very valid points which is what I’m looking for.

Cloud cuckoo land my friend, you have no idea of how difficult it is to work in a confined space or how long even a basic fit out will take.

There are hundreds of boats on the canals that have never been finished, started by eager DIY fitters who have grossly over-rate their abilities.

I have been in construction and the boat industry for many many years and it takes me at least a year to complete a fit out, or it did when I was younger. I dread to consider doing another now.

Accept that you know next to nothing, go hire a boat, then if you are not put off, go buy a used boat, cruise that for a year or two, make all your mistakes and learn.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Tracy D'arth

[MtB]

48 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Sorry but this just doesn’t make sense to me. If that boat you’re talking about was ‘better than most’ and not able to enter the water then surely the boat builder who built it is not a boat builder at all and shouldn’t be in business. 

 

I think you need to re-read the post. That is not what happened at all!

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Are you suggesting that all new boats come with problems, or is this just one a few minority boats?

 

Broadly speaking, yes. Most new boats come off the lorry with problems, especially cheap new ones. The buyer is the tester. 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

In my mind buying a new boat with all the electrics, plumbing, heating done by professionals should guarantee a problem free boat for at least a few years. But again I could be wrong, which is why I’m here 🙂

 

It doesn't seem like it. You seem more concerned to argue about it than to hear and listen to what is being said. I suggest you get out onto the towpath and hang about by a lock for an afternoon. Wait for an obviously shiny new boat to come past and engage the owner in conversation. Ask who the builder was and if there were any faults or problems after taking delivery. Then you'll get perhaps a suggestion or two about a builder to approach, or to avoid from a real life customer. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr.T]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It was able to 'enter the water' it is just that they could not find where water was entering the boat - it could have been rain leaking in thru a bad weld. a leaky window or .........

 

You repeatedly poo-poo, or refuse to accept, what long-time boaters are telling you. The posters that have replied to you probably have a combined experience of some 500 years of boating.

 

I wish you well, but, having asked for advice, unless to actually take it, I will not be surprised to see it al end in tears.

 

 

Understood. You said ‘external water leaking into the hull’ so I assumed it was not fit to go in water. 
 

I came on here to learn and I definitely have. So many thanks for your comments

[Mr.T]

8 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Cloud cuckoo land my friend, you have no idea of how difficult it is to work in a confined space or how long even a basic fit out will take.

There are hundreds of boats on the canals that have never been finished, started by eager DIY fitters who have grossly over-rate their abilities.

I have been in construction and the boat industry for many many years and it takes me at least a year to complete a fit out, or it did when I was younger. I dread to consider doing another now.

Accept that you know next to nothing, go hire a boat, then if you are not put off, go buy a used boat, cruise that for a year or too, make all your mistakes and learn.

How would you know if I know what it’s like to work in a confined space, my friend?

[Mr.T]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I think you need to re-read the post. That is not what happened at all!

 

 

 

 

Broadly speaking, yes. Most new boats come off the lorry with problems, especially cheap new ones. The buyer is the tester. 

 

 

 

It doesn't seem like it. You seem more concerned to argue about it than to hear and listen to what is being said. I suggest you get out onto the towpath and hang about by a lock for an afternoon. Wait for an obviously shiny new boat to come past and engage the owner in conversation. Ask who the builder was and if there were any faults or problems after taking delivery. Then you'll get perhaps a suggestion or two about a builder to approach, or to avoid from a real life customer. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It’s not an argument on my part, apologies if it comes across this way. I’m just trying to fully understand the issues of buying a new boat. The last few post have helped understand the boating world works abit differently and I’ll definitely be a lot more cautious before buying new. Thanks

[Tony1]

 

As someone who only moved onto a boat 3 years ago and still a relative newbie myself, I cannot stress strongly enough that the members here know what they are on about. Their advice is generally worth its weight in gold, and they will usually give you up to date, practicable and accurate information and advice on almost any topic you raise, provided you are polite and respectful in your approach (some new folks are not).

Many times they will respond very quickly with great advice if you have an emergency. 

Please, please give due weight to their advice.

As a newbie I was inclined to think I knew how I wanted things on a boat, and what were the important things, and I felt that I probably knew the best way to get what I wanted.

In reality, I reckon about a third of the issues you think are important now will become very low priority within a month of moving aboard, and a whole raft of new needs and priorities will arise that you did not foresee. 

The gas thing is a great example- gas is used on almost all boats, but not because it's traditional or from sentiment- it is simply the cheapest and easiest way to get the huge bursts of heat energy needed for 30-60 minutes for cooking.

The electrical methods are ALL more complex in execution, and much more expensive, and they will require running your engine or a genny anyway- which after 8pm is not really permitted. 

The gas bottles last five or six months (in my case), so its no hassle to keep a supply going. 

 

I do also get the attraction of having a new boat built, so that the engine and critical systems are all brand new, but you probably wont get afloat for about 18 months. That's 18 months of wasted boating time. In my case that might end up being 15% of all the time I have left whilst still fit and able to actually live aboard a boat.

For a similar price to a brand new sailaway - plus all the materials you'll need to finish it-  I bet you can probably get hold of a boat that is only a year or two old, and still in almost as-new condition. And you can be afloat within a few months, if you can find the right one at the right price. 

ETA- the prices for nearly-new boats vs brand new seem quite close, but the advertised prices you'll be looking at might not be what they actually sell for. 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Tony1

[Mr.T]

3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

As someone who only moved onto a boat 3 years ago and still a relative newbie myself, I cannot stress strongly enough that the members here know what they are on about. Their advice is generally worth its weight in gold, and they will usually give you up to date, practicable and accurate information and advice on almost any topic you raise, provided you are polite and respectful in your approach (some new folks are not).

Many times they will respond very quickly with great advice if you have an emergency. 

Please, please give due weight to their advice.

As a newbie I was inclined to think I knew how I wanted things on a boat, and what were the important things, and I felt that I probably knew the best way to get what I wanted.

In reality, I reckon about a third of the issues you think are important now will become very low priority within a month of moving aboard, and a whole raft of new needs and priorities will arise that you did not foresee. 

The gas thing is a great example- gas is used on almost all boats, but not because it's traditional or from sentiment- it is simply the cheapest and easiest way to get the huge bursts of heat energy needed for 30-60 minutes for cooking.

The electrical methods are ALL more complex in execution, and much more expensive, and they will require running your engine or a genny anyway- which after 8pm is not really permitted. 

The gas bottles last five or six months (in my case), so its no hassle to keep a supply going. 

 

I do also get the attraction of having a new boat built, so that the engine and critical systems are all brand new, but you probably wont get afloat for about 18 months. That's 18 months of wasted boating time. In my case that might end up being 15% of all the time I have left whilst still fit and able to actually live aboard a boat.

For a similar price to a brand new sailaway - plus all the materials you'll need to finish it-  I bet you can probably get hold of a boat that is only a year or two old, and still in almost as-new condition. And you can be afloat within a few months, if you can find the right one at the right price. 

 

 

 

Many thanks, could you go abit further into the unforeseen issues?

Fully understand that gas for cooking makes sense now, especially in winter.

And absolutely, if I could find the exact boat (or near enough) that I want second hand and was only a few years old, then I would probably go down that route.

[Tracy D'arth]

29 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

How would you know if I know what it’s like to work in a confined space, my friend?

If you are taking that attitude, to hell with you, make all the same mistakes that we all made when we started out and the best of luck. I'm out of here, no time for the new boater know it all anymore.

[Tony1]

 

Just on the energy point, from your details I'd say you'll probably be a 130Ah per day sort of chap, like myself. 

I have 1400 watts of panels, but 1000w will do an awful lot of what you need. 

I get enough solar power to be self-sufficient for about 9 months of the year, and in fact I get solar hot water for about 4-5 months of the year.  

Lithium batteries are brilliant (esp with lots of panels and a good genny or engine charging system)- but there is a feeling here that they may become subject to some new regs in future, so make sure the battery and charging install is fully compliant. 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

39 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

How would you know if I know what it’s like to work in a confined space, my friend?

@Mr.T Please don’t get into a bun fight, it’s really not worth it, just read what people are saying, take in the relevant points and make your decisions, after all it’s ultimately your choice, your money and it will only affect your life. 
Can I ask, if you don’t mind what sort of budget your looking to spend, as I know of a new build nearly ready to go. Have sent you a PM. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

but I suspect gas will still have far fewer potential problems.

Absolutely, Tony! The newbie who thinks he can manage with an all-electric boat soon finds his battery potential has dropped well below 12 volts!

Edited August 10, 2023 by David Mack

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

There are some lovely used boats knocking about looking for a new lease of life.

Save yourself a shed load of (beer)money and lots of time by getting one of those.

Why not get boating as soon as possible?

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Goliath

[Mr.T]

18 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Just on the energy point, from your details I'd say you'll probably be a 130Ah per day sort of chap, like myself. 

I have 1400 watts of panels, but 1000w will do an awful lot of what you need. 

I get enough solar power to be self-sufficient for about 9 months of the year, and in fact I get solar hot water for about 4-5 months of the year.  

Lithium batteries are brilliant (esp with lots of panels and a good genny or engine charging system)- but there is a feeling here that they may become subject to some new regs in future, so make sure the battery and charging install is fully compliant. 

 

 

Great thanks, so I assume for the other 3 months you’re using diesel to top up the batteries?

[Tony1]

28 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Many thanks, could you go abit further into the unforeseen issues?

Fully understand that gas for cooking makes sense now, especially in winter.

And absolutely, if I could find the exact boat (or near enough) that I want second hand and was only a few years old, then I would probably go down that route.

 

In terms of predicting my needs wrongly, I bought a petrol genny before I moved aboard, to provide a backup source of electricity generation.

After 30 months of it not getting used and taking up space in the cratch, I gave it away. 

 

I bought a clothes stand/dryer thing, and again it never got used more than once.  In summer I dry on the stern using a brolly-mate, and in winter I can dry some stuff inside the boat overnight (you keep the stove ticking over and a window ajar so there is no condensation). But I have to find a local launderette for towels, bedding etc.

A month in, I realised I wanted a washing machine, and still do, but its not worth the hassle and expense of changing my kitchen layout, as my boat is only 50ft long and I cant afford to lose any kitchencupboard storage. 

 

My boat came with only diesel CH, and by early October I realised I was going to need a SF (or diesel) stove. By early November I was burning a lot of diesel and the boat was still barely comfortable. When it was finally fitted, the SF stove transformed the liveaboard experience instantly. 

 

I took a full size bike aboard, and soon realised in school hols/ summer etc, I was sometimes going to struggle to get it onto trains (and I had nowhere handy to store it on the boat), so I ended up with a folder. Then I realised that 16 inch wheels are not great on some rough towpaths, esp in the wetter months, so I changed bikes again. 

 

After a month aboard I realised the batteries and the charging system were basically rubbish, and I went through a whole journey with lithium batteries and the best way to charge them.

 

Boat length is another thing- I thought I'd be fine living solo on a 50ft boat, but storage space is a constant challenge and a major hassle. 

I often have to almost turn the boat upside down to find a tool, or a length of cable that I mislaid a week or two before. 

 

Windows are another thing-  I didnt give a thought to it when I first moved aboard, but after a few months I realised I needed more interior light, i.e. bigger/more windows.  

 

That's why people are suggesting trying a boat hire in late Autumn before you buy, Its only once you live on a boat that you truly realise what features and issue are important to you. I got plenty of my initial guesses right (about what I wanted), but a good number of my expectations and concerns turned out to be very minor, and some brand new ones cropped up.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Tony1

[Mr.T]

21 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If you are taking that attitude, to hell with you, make all the same mistakes that we all made when we started out and the best of luck. I'm out of here, no time for the new boater know it all anymore.

No problem. I’m a newbie who knows nothing that’s for sure but your post was intended to mock and not helpful at all. Also my response was fair, I didn’t disagree with what else you said but your comment about working in a confined space was not true.

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, Mr.T said:

How would you know if I know what it’s like to work in a confined space, my friend?

 

Mr T, I can understand that some replies come off as being a bit impatient or brusque, but I would ask you to be patient.

In their defence, you must bear in mind that the same question has been asked here not dozens, but probably hundreds of times, and after taking the time and trouble to respond hundreds and hundreds of times, the members advice is often totally ignored or answered very rudely.

Not that you've done that here, but before escalating anything into a personal quarrel, do bear in mind that Tracy, Tony, Nick and all the others give freely of their time, their knowledge and their decades of experience, and although they do occasionally let impatience show a bit more than you might want, never forget that their advice will often save you a lot of time, money and heartache, and maybe one late evening in the future when you have a critical failure, their prompt advice might get you out of a pickle.   

You'll never find a more useful or valuable source of knowledge on all things boating, but sometimes initially there is a teeny bit of prickliness to adjust to. Tracy is a gem and a mine of info, so I do hope you can settle your minor tiff. 

 

[magnetman]

Are narrow boats classed as confined spaces? 

 

I wonder if the BS scheme ought to require these stickers to be added. I already have them on my boats. 

 

I have these ones which are better 

 

Do like the little icons on these stickers. 

[Mr.T]

17 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Mr T, I can understand that some replies come off as being a bit impatient or brusque, but I would ask you to be patient.

In their defence, you must bear in mind that the same question has been asked here not dozens, but probably hundreds of times, and after taking the time and trouble to respond hundreds and hundreds of times, the members advice is often totally ignored or answered very rudely.

Not that you've done that here, but before escalating anything into a personal quarrel, do bear in mind that Tracy, Tony, Nick and all the others give freely of their time, their knowledge and their decades of experience, and although they do occasionally let impatience show a bit more than you might want, never forget that their advice will often save you a lot of time, money and heartache, and maybe one late evening in the future when you have a critical failure, their prompt advice might get you out of a pickle.   

You'll never find a more useful or valuable source of knowledge on all things boating, but sometimes initially there is a teeny bit of prickliness to adjust to. Tracy is a gem and a mine of info, so I do hope you can settle your minor tiff. 

 

Yep totally understand that this has been brought up many times and I did apologise for that in my first post. I do appreciate all the advice and I’ve definitely learned alot since yesterday. I also think I’ve been respectful to the the members throughout but that post from Tracy deserved a small bite in my opinion. Happy to make up and become best buds though 🙂 

[Tony1]

59 minutes ago, Mr.T said:

Great thanks, so I assume for the other 3 months you’re using diesel to top up the batteries?

 

Yes, that's right. 

Once we get to October the solar yield drops off, and I start finding I have to run the engine every other day to add some extra charge. 

By mid November, the solar in my case is so low that all I get is a minor top up from it. 

On some sunny winter days, IF the side of the boat is facing south, I can double my solar yield by tilting up the panels, but that's not common. 

Because I only need engine charging on about 100 days of the year, I dont mind running the engine to generate the charge- and more so because I've increased the charging capacity, so I can now charge the batteries at 70-80 amps. The significance of that is that the charging is mostly done within an hour per day, with a little bit added by the solar. 

If I was charging at say 30 or 40 amps and so had to run the engine for two hours or more each day, I would buy a 2kw genny instead, so as to save the wear and tear on the engine, plus extra servicing etc. 

Bear in mind that even one the days they dont move their boat, many people will still run their engine anyway for hot water (you could get it by heating water on the stove, but that takes longer), so in those cases it might make sense to make sure you have a decent engine alternator to do the charging.

My engine alternator couldn't be easily upgraded because of the crank, so make sure the boat has a decent alternator, as Nicks said above.

Many alternators that are rated at 100 amps can't deliver even half of that current on a prolonged charge, without seriously overheating.