Towpath Tarmacking Moratorium?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, MrsM said:

I normally agree with you but on this occasion I don't. I don't know anybody who wouldn't be happy to pay a bit more tax if it meant that our health and public services could be saved from the catastrophic decline they've faced in the last decade and longer. 

 

Trouble is it wouldn't be 'a bit more', we'd need to something like double the income tax take to sort out the NHS and all the other public services underfunded.

 

And even then, people would moan it's not good enough.

 

 

[MrsM]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Trouble is it wouldn't be 'a bit more', we'd need to something like double the income tax take to sort out the NHS and all the other public services underfunded.

 

And even then, people would moan it's not good enough.

 

 

I agree that a bit more wouldn't really touch the sides. I think one of the issues many have with individual taxation levels is when we see fat cat bosses with tax havens, and big corporations paying bugger all. Get this sorted and individual increases might not seem so unpalatable. 

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Trouble is it wouldn't be 'a bit more', we'd need to something like double the income tax take to sort out the NHS and all the other public services underfunded.

 

And even then, people would moan it's not good enough.

 

 

There will never be enough cash to buy everything on the NHS or  any other utopia  That fact is that other countries manage their finances bette

Politicians here have no idea how to sort the mess they have created, individually they have lifetime privileges voted for themselves, free flights to London, free pension, free lunches, forevermore 

[MrsM]

Just now, LadyG said:

There will never be enough cash to buy everything on the NHS or  any other utopia  That fact is that other countries manage their finances bette

Politicians here have no idea how to sort the mess they have created, individually they have lifetime privileges voted for themselves, free flights to London, free pension, free lunches, forevermore 

And its all so bloody short-termist.

[LadyG]

Just now, MrsM said:

And its all so bloody short-termist.

That is because they only worry about the date of the next election.

[David Mack]

24 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I don't know anybody who wouldn't be happy to pay a bit more tax if it meant that our health and public services could be saved from the catastrophic decline they've faced in the last decade and longer. 

People often say they are prepared to pay more tax for better public services, but come election time, when presented with a charismatic party leader spouting three word slogans and promoting lies on the side of a bus, that isn't how they vote.

6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

My take on the idiocy that seems to abound now, is that anything that is self-propelled, so that includes Ebikes and electric scooters, apart for very low powered and speed limited toys require licensing, number plates, insurance, and the passing of some form of test. Too many riders of both are a menace to themselves, lethal to pedestrians, and put motorists into danger. It is illegal to ride all but hired Escooters on the road and footpath, yet they do and ignore traffic lights, signalling, and road positioning. Often weaving about, across the rod and up and down the kerb as it suits them. A number of the Ebikers seem to do very similar things, plus ignore any speed limits.  In the case of Escooters the law is there, but it seems never enforced. I think there is also some law in respect of Ebike performance, but again it does not seem to be enforced.

 

I note that one local adult  Ebiker takes a child on the scooter and still ignores traffic lights etc. When there is an accident with a car, we all know whose fault will be assumed. We even get adults on Escooters ridding around the supermarket doing their shopping. We also know from experience of ordinary cycles that an accident with a pedestrian could well cause serious injuries and it will be far worse with a high-powered Ebike.

We have recently had two well-publicised incidents where three 15/16 year old boys on electric bikes lost their lives in accidents. The public and media reaction has concentrated on the fact that the police were following them before (but not at the time of) the accidents. In both cases the bikes involved were not legal electric-assisted cycles, limited to 15mph and 250W and which required manual pedalling to engage the electric assistance. These were effectively electrically powered motor cycles, which should require vehicle tax and insurance, a provisional or full driving licence and motor cycle helmets. But when the police have engaged, they get the blame for the deaths. Is it any wonder the problem is out of control?

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

There will never be enough cash to buy everything on the NHS or  any other utopia  That fact is that other countries manage their finances bette

 

Go on then, do us a list of other countries with a completely free-at-the-point-of-use health service. I can't think of ANY! 

 

 

But then I am pretty feek.

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Any Scandinavian country. 
 

I think 🤔 

Could be wrong (wouldn’t be the first time)

[LadyG]

Agree with @Goliath

Edited June 17, 2023 by LadyG

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Well there’s a first for awhile. 
Some one in agreement with me 😃

 

and that give us 4 countries. 
 

now I’m gonna hazard a guess Australia too. 
 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Goliath

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

People often say they are prepared to pay more tax for better public services, but come election time, when presented with a charismatic party leader spouting three word slogans and promoting lies on the side of a bus, that isn't how they vote.

We have recently had two well-publicised incidents where three 15/16 year old boys on electric bikes lost their lives in accidents. The public and media reaction has concentrated on the fact that the police were following them before (but not at the time of) the accidents. In both cases the bikes involved were not legal electric-assisted cycles, limited to 15mph and 250W and which required manual pedalling to engage the electric assistance. These were effectively electrically powered motor cycles, which should require vehicle tax and insurance, a provisional or full driving licence and motor cycle helmets. But when the police have engaged, they get the blame for the deaths. Is it any wonder the problem is out of control?

You may recall that police in London got told to stop chasing kids on mopeds without helmets on the grounds that they might die if they crashed . The policy had to be scrapped as so many muggings were done by such, and drugs also being run, once they knew they wouldn't be stopped.

There seems a prevailing attitude of lack of personal responsibility. The dead kids knew what they were doing was illegal as well as dangerous - that's why it was fun to do. Their parents knew it too, and presumably bought them the bikes. And yet it's the fault of the law enforcers that the kids got hurt. This country is a weird place at the moment.

ETA of course the police didn't help their case much by lying about it all, though. They weren't going to take responsibility for trying to enforce the law, either. As above, this is a weird place.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Perhaps we should follow the ways of other countries such as the DPRK?
I expect they’d cope swiftly with speeding cyclists, and I reckon they’d soon get a team together to dig canals. 

[Heartland]

Its illegal to use any escooter on the towpath that is not hired from a licenced outlet, regardless of the speed they do.

 

What do the criminals carrying drugs or out to rob care about this illegality, but if such persons use a canal route on a regular basis may be those that notice them can text their details to a number. 61016 is the British Transport Police line I wonder if they still have a role on the waterways?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

16 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Its illegal to use any escooter on the towpath that is not hired from a licenced outlet, regardless of the speed they do.

 

What do the criminals carrying drugs or out to rob care about this illegality, but if such persons use a canal route on a regular basis may be those that notice them can text their details to a number. 61016 is the British Transport Police line I wonder if they still have a role on the waterways?

It is always the local police (S Yorkshire) who (occasionally) respond to anything reported on the canal here, not BTP.

From the BTP web site:

Quote

Our mission is to help the millions of people who use the railways of England, Wales and Scotland get home safely and on time. We police Britain’s railways, providing a service to rail operators, their staff and passengers across the country. We also police the London Underground, Docklands Light Railway, the Midland Metro tram system, Croydon Tramlink, Tyne and Wear Metro, Glasgow Subway and Emirates AirLine.

 

[Tony Brooks]

10 hours ago, David Mack said:

We have recently had two well-publicised incidents where three 15/16 year old boys on electric bikes lost their lives in accidents. The public and media reaction has concentrated on the fact that the police were following them before (but not at the time of) the accidents. In both cases the bikes involved were not legal electric-assisted cycles, limited to 15mph and 250W and which required manual pedalling to engage the electric assistance. These were effectively electrically powered motor cycles, which should require vehicle tax and insurance, a provisional or full driving licence and motor cycle helmets. But when the police have engaged, they get the blame for the deaths. Is it any wonder the problem is out of control?

 

You have identified the problem, they were not legal Ebikes. Eventually, some control of the situation might be achieved by tracing the source of the bike/modification and act there. I mean really act, not some minimal sentence that seem to be usually given to breakers of retailing laws. That would almost certainly mean making online "platforms" publishers and being jointly liable for shortcomings in the goods they aid and abet/facilitate the sale of. If sellers/modifiers suddenly found themselves facing a manslaughter charge with a very lengthy prison sentence and/or extreme fines, it just might get the message out not to do it. In those cases, there are also questions about the parents facilitating the use of an illegal machine and in one case it seems inciting civil unrest. It needs addressing from all angles. Another thought is that perhaps the highway code and associated law and sentencing guidelines needs amending to say that in the event of an accident the user(s) of the illegal machine is deemed at fault unless proven otherwise.

14 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It is always the local police (S Yorkshire) who (occasionally) respond to anything reported on the canal here, not BTP.

From the BTP web site:

 

 

Yes, but it would be interesting to see if the responsibility for policing the waterways and docks has ever been removed by stature, and not just conveniently forgotten. That is, if the BTP ever were responsible.

[Mike Hurley]

10 hours ago, Goliath said:

Well there’s a first for awhile. 
Some one in agreement with me 😃

 

and that give us 4 countries. 
 

now I’m gonna hazard a guess Australia too. 
 

 

Canada?

[Heartland]

The Transport Police were once associated with the waterways network, but whether it was the railway controlled waterways only is another case to be resolved. The BCN had police involvement and there are newspaper reports and archive correspondence that confirm this.

The Transport Police were once associated with the waterways network, but whether it was the railway controlled waterways only is another case to be resolved. The BCN had police involvement and there are newspaper reports and archive correspondence that confirm this.

The Transport Police were once associated with the waterways network, but whether it was the railway controlled waterways only is another case to be resolved. The BCN had police involvement and there are newspaper reports and archive correspondence that confirm this.

[David Mack]

48 minutes ago, Heartland said:

The Transport Police were once associated with the waterways network, but whether it was the railway controlled waterways only is another case to be resolved. The BCN had police involvement and there are newspaper reports and archive correspondence that confirm this.

"BTP constables previously had jurisdiction at docks, ports, harbours and inland waterways, as well at some bus stations and British Transport Hotels. These roles fell away in 1985 with privatisation. The legislation was amended to reflect this in 1994."

 

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Transport_Police

[ditchcrawler]

15 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

You may recall that police in London got told to stop chasing kids on mopeds without helmets on the grounds that they might die if they crashed . The policy had to be scrapped as so many muggings were done by such, and drugs also being run, once they knew they wouldn't be stopped.

There seems a prevailing attitude of lack of personal responsibility. The dead kids knew what they were doing was illegal as well as dangerous - that's why it was fun to do. Their parents knew it too, and presumably bought them the bikes. And yet it's the fault of the law enforcers that the kids got hurt. This country is a weird place at the moment.

ETA of course the police didn't help their case much by lying about it all, though. They weren't going to take responsibility for trying to enforce the law, either. As above, this is a weird place.

Just see the two cases under investigation now where the police followed two lads on an illegal electric bike that got killed

[LadyG]

17 hours ago, MrsM said:

I normally agree with you but on this occasion I don't. I don't know anybody who wouldn't be happy to pay a bit more tax if it meant that our health and public services could be saved from the catastrophic decline they've faced in the last decade and longer. 

The trouble is that there is a tipping point both for services and for those individuals who are working to support services. That is why head teachers are retiring early, ditto nurses and consultants. A career in the police service must be very difficult, no one can blame them for signing off as soon as they can.

[Hudds Lad]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Just see the two cases under investigation now where the police followed two lads on an illegal electric bike that got killed

“up to 28mph”  

 

I was overtaken by one the other week after i’d dropped my daughter at college, he was going uphill one handed whilst he messed with his phone and i was doing the 40mph limit on that road.

[LadyG]

19 hours ago, David Mack said:

People often say they are prepared to pay more tax for better public services, but come election time, when presented with a charismatic party leader spouting three word slogans and promoting lies on the side of a bus, that isn't how they vote.

We have recently had two well-publicised incidents where three 15/16 year old boys on electric bikes lost their lives in accidents. The public and media reaction has concentrated on the fact that the police were following them before (but not at the time of) the accidents. In both cases the bikes involved were not legal electric-assisted cycles, limited to 15mph and 250W and which required manual pedalling to engage the electric assistance. These were effectively electrically powered motor cycles, which should require vehicle tax and insurance, a provisional or full driving licence and motor cycle helmets. But when the police have engaged, they get the blame for the deaths. Is it any wonder the problem is out of control?

Police don't always get blamed for causing an accident, but obviously there will be an inquiry if there is a fatality. There is not much they can do anyway to stop these people, mostly youths, male youths who are acting illegally.

That is why the regulations must be hiked up. Full safety kit, reg numbers and insurance for every powered vehicle.

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

Police don't always get blamed for causing an accident, but obviously there will be an inquiry if there is a fatality. There is not much they can do anyway to stop these people, mostly youths, male youths who are acting illegally.

That is why the regulations must be hiked up. Full safety kit, reg numbers and insurance for every powered vehicle.

 

But if they are not going to stop them whats the point, I have seen motorbikes on the towpath with reg numbers but they are not licenced.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

But if they are not going to stop them whats the point, I have seen motorbikes on the towpath with reg numbers but they are not licenced.

They are not stopping many powered  vehicles because at the moment most are not illegal 

Once they are illegal they can be removed from the roads and anywhere else, also points on driving licences.

Nothing is being enforced because they are difficult to get hold of, but it's easy enough to stop any illegal vehicle if they are all illegal.

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, LadyG said:

They are not stopping many powered  vehicles because at the moment most are not illegal 

Once they are illegal they can be removed from the roads and anywhere else, also points on driving licences.

Nothing is being enforced because they are difficult to get hold of, but it's easy enough to stop any illegal vehicle if they are all illegal.

Any motorbike, electric powered bike, quad is illegal on the towpath, tax, insurance , helmets don't change that. they are all illegal.