Government Decision, but C&RT fight to overturn it

[enigmatic]

52 minutes ago, MtB said:

This is an odd and perhaps revealing phrase for Damien to have used.

 

I wonder if the government has instructed CRT to close the network to boating except during peak boating season, to save on maintenance. Or something along those lines. 

 

Sounds unlikely. Both that the government would suggest this and that CRT would object  

 

Anyway, I'm in the Pennines at the moment, and having it open during peak boating season would be an improvement.

[Rob-M]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I took it to have been Alan who edited it out. 

 

As usual, Alan posts a copy and paste without a link to where he got it from.

 

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/boating-news-and-views/the-boaters-update/boaters-update-16-june-2023?utm_source=mailchimp&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=boating_2023

 

[LadyG]

Not sure I'm clear what is the real story.

[Stroudwater1]

Indeed the newsletter news states as mentioned above when it isn’t mentioned above? 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

There was meant to be a government announcement on Friday 9 June 2023. This was defered to Monday 12 June 2023 then defered again with no date given.

 

I understand the announcement (almost certainly a tapering off grant) is delayed pending changes to CRT's governing documents to resolve its legal status.

 

It is now becoming very urgent that this matter is resolved.  CRT has been using a derogation from HM Treasury which has allowed it to operate on a temporary basis as a charity rather than a government department. However, that ran out at the end of March.

[Arthur Marshall]

23 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

There was meant to be a government announcement on Friday 9 June 2023. This was defered to Monday 12 June 2023 then defered again with no date given.

 

I understand the announcement (almost certainly a tapering off grant) is delayed pending changes to CRT's governing documents to resolve its legal status.

 

It is now becoming very urgent that this matter is resolved.  CRT has been using a derogation from HM Treasury which has allowed it to operate on a temporary basis as a charity rather than a government department. However, that ran out at the end of March.

I thought CRT was set up as a charity in the first place. Why should that suddenly change?

Edited June 17, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[John Brightley]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I thought CRT was set up as a charity in the first place. Why should that suddenly change?

Yes, CRT is a charity.

https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/-/charity-details/5027494

[Tonka]

10 hours ago, Jak said:

I may have rose tinted specs, but I just dont see this.  Canal Boating is bigger than its been for years. Holidays and private owners. Then we have the tow path enhancements and the new marinas. Its a p@ss take surely?

 

The number of hire companies is a fraction of what it was in the 1970's and 1980's. The number of small boatyards is again a fraction of what there was. Look at the Crt long term mooring sites and most of them are empty.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, John Brightley said:

Yes, CRT is a charity.

https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/-/charity-details/5027494

 

 

Yes, they are (incorrecty)  registered as a charity but the way they are set up is not in accordance with Charity Law.

 

Allan has explained the detail & problem several times in the past - hence the need for their governing structure to be revised.

 

They are, in effect, still under Government control, and the Government cannot be a registered charity.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[pete.i]

Personally, (and don't forget that I have no boat any more nor do I volunteer for CRT any more,) I think that CRT would love to get rid of boaters and that is a view that I have held for a long time. The biggest problem for them is where would the 30 or so thousand livaboards go. Also there are a lot of businesses up and down the canal system that rely soley on the canals and boaters. Whilst I still think that CRT would love to see the canals boatless I cannot see anything happening any time soon nor in the forseeable long term. But what do I know.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, pete.i said:

The biggest problem for them is where would the 30 or so thousand livaboards go.

 

I thibk you may be confusing the figures a little ............

 

There are some 30,000 liceced boats on C&RT waters, of which C&RT claim 5,000 - 6000 (depending on which way the wind is blowing) that are liveaboards.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

38 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I thought CRT was set up as a charity in the first place. Why should that suddenly change?

CANAL & River Trust’s registration with the Charity Commission in 2012 was accepted on the basis that it was independent from government. It is still registered as a charity.

However, within weeks it was also  catagorised as a "Public Non-Financial Corporation" because it was under the control of government.

 

Obviously, it should not be both at the same time! However, Defra have shown little inclination until now to sort the matter out.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I thibk you may be confusing the figures a little ............

 

There are some 30,000 liceced boats on C&RT waters, of which C&RT claim 5,000 - 6000 (depending on which way the wind is blowing) that are liveaboards.

And even that figure probably confuses continuous cruisers with liveaboards, as there's no way currently to tell the difference.

1 hour ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

CANAL & River Trust’s registration with the Charity Commission in 2012 was accepted on the basis that it was independent from government. It is still registered as a charity.

However, within weeks it was also  catagorised as a "Public Non-Financial Corporation" because it was under the control of government.

 

Obviously, it should not be both at the same time! However, Defra have shown little inclination until now to sort the matter out.

Thanks for the explanation.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, pete.i said:

Personally, (and don't forget that I have no boat any more nor do I volunteer for CRT any more,) I think that CRT would love to get rid of boaters and that is a view that I have held for a long time. The biggest problem for them is where would the 30 or so thousand livaboards go. Also there are a lot of businesses up and down the canal system that rely soley on the canals and boaters. Whilst I still think that CRT would love to see the canals boatless I cannot see anything happening any time soon nor in the forseeable long term. But what do I know.

That may well be your entrenched opinion, but it doesn't seem to be that of most people working for CART that I've spoken to or read about... 😉

 

Though it might well be the view of the ignorant idiots in the current (last 13 years) government who hold the pursestrings... 😞

[Stroudwater1]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

That may well be your entrenched opinion, but it doesn't seem to be that of most people working for CART that I've spoken to or read about... 😉

 

Though it might well be the view of the ignorant idiots in the current (last 13 years) government who hold the pursestrings... 😞

I strongly suspect Ian that it’s the held belief in the Department. It’s  unlikely to change whatever complexion of Government takes over in that case as subtle (ish) nuances will be lost on a new minister or Secretary of State taking on that department . There are likely many priorities higher for the department that politicians will have and want to influence . 

it’s unfortunate that the IWA is rather rudderless currently as they can have significant influence 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I strongly suspect Ian that it’s the held belief in the Department. It’s  unlikely to change whatever complexion of Government takes over in that case as subtle (ish) nuances will be lost on a new minister or Secretary of State taking on that department . There are likely many priorities higher for the department that politicians will have and want to influence . 

it’s unfortunate that the IWA is rather rudderless currently as they can have significant influence 

Agreed on all counts. Just pointing out that the biggest deterioration in the canals has been since 2010, and I'm sure I don't need to point out which particular bunch are to blame for that... 😉

 

If only we had another Barbara Castle as well as a strong and influential IWA... 😞

Edited June 17, 2023 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

37 minutes ago, IanD said:

Agreed on all counts. Just pointing out that the biggest deterioration in the canals has been since 2010, and I'm sure I don't need to point out which particular bunch are to blame for that... 😉

 

If only we had another Barbara Castle as well as a strong and influential IWA... 😞

Most structures have a tipping point when it comes to detioration. When it hits this, it just gets more and more expensive to keep it going and our governments have been wedded to austerity, and their voters to low taxation, for a long time. Governments of any stripe have to prioritise their spending, and a playground for the well-off doesn't come very high in anyone's. It certainly won't if the Labour party take over, and current Tory policy is cutting inflation by increasing unemployment and making housing more expensive, which won't leave much for any of us to splurge on boats, diesel and gas - all of which are costing more.

Most of us longtermers have seen this coming for many years. I await the much delayed Government anouncement with bated breath I suspect it'll be sneaked out when they've got a major crisis to mask it.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

And even that figure probably confuses continuous cruisers with liveaboards, as there's no way currently to tell the difference.

 

 

C&RT have conducted surveys to assess the number of liveaboards - the problem being as many are "keeping under the radar", they lie and the true figures are masked.

 

I think the last one was around 2020 and showed around 5000 and giving an annual growth year on year of about 12%

[ditchcrawler]

16 hours ago, Jak said:

Hit the nail on the head I think. But then does it matter?  I’m a hooby boater with a cheap project boat. But those guys at Crick with the 200k widebeam might be our saviours. What will they do if there is no where to float their mansion?

Put stop planks across the mouth of the marina and feed it with a bore hole.

[Jak]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT have conducted surveys to assess the number of liveaboards - the problem being as many are "keeping under the radar", they lie and the true figures are masked.

I’d hazard a guess that almost 50% of long term moorers are actually live-a-boards from what I’ve seen. As you say “keeping under the radar”. No one seems to care. 

[Tonka]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

Agreed on all counts. Just pointing out that the biggest deterioration in the canals has been since 2010, and I'm sure I don't need to point out which particular bunch are to blame for that... 😉

 

If only we had another Barbara Castle as well as a strong and influential IWA... 😞

Was 2010 the year you started hiring

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Jak said:

I’d hazard a guess that almost 50% of long term moorers are actually live-a-boards from what I’ve seen. As you say “keeping under the radar”. No one seems to care. 

I can't agree, I'm up North and a lot of moorers are people who just leave their boats during the week,  probably moving it every two weeks.

[IanD]

17 hours ago, Tonka said:

Was 2010 the year you started hiring

No, thirty years earlier... 😉

[Creaking Gate]

On 17/06/2023 at 09:35, pete.i said:

Personally, (and don't forget that I have no boat any more nor do I volunteer for CRT any more,) I think that CRT would love to get rid of boaters and that is a view that I have held for a long time. The biggest problem for them is where would the 30 or so thousand livaboards go. Also there are a lot of businesses up and down the canal system that rely soley on the canals and boaters. Whilst I still think that CRT would love to see the canals boatless I cannot see anything happening any time soon nor in the forseeable long term. But what do I know.

 

Not much.  You need a tin hat.  How is 30,000 livaboards a problem for CRT and there are not many business which solely rely on boaters.  Boat numbers are increasing year on year.  I suppose a CRT naysayer would twist that to suggest they are even doing a bad job of removing boaters from the canal. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/canal-river-trust-grant-review

 

Says decision expected July 1st.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

9 minutes ago, Creaking Gate said:

 

Not much.  You need a tin hat.  How is 30,000 livaboards a problem for CRT and there are not many business which solely rely on boaters.  Boat numbers are increasing year on year.  I suppose a CRT naysayer would twist that to suggest they are even doing a bad job of removing boaters from the canal. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/canal-river-trust-grant-review

 

Says decision expected July 1st.

It says July 1 2022 but defered ...

 

It did say defered to Autumn 2022 but that was quietly removed.

 

July 1 2022 was written into the grant agreement as the latest date by which an announcement on post 2027 funding would be made. The announcement is now almost a year late.