Buyer beware!

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Mike Tee said:

ABNB ask for a £1000 non refundable deposit

As I said previously, if they do, this is fairly new practice, and not one I agree with. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by matty40s

[Mike Tee]

11 minutes ago, matty40s said:

As I said previously, if they do, this is fairly new practice, and not one I agree with. 

They do, just bought through them. And I'm not keen on this practise either!

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mike Tee

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

They do, just bought through them. And I'm not keen on this practise either!

But nevertheless you though they (and the boat) were sufficiently attractive to go with them... 😉

 

So it didn't put you off or cost you anything, but probably discouraged the gongoozlers and tirekickers so you got the boat you wanted more quickly and with less apparent competition. Isn't that a good thing? 🙂

Edited June 15, 2023 by IanD

[Stroudwater1]

Agree with Matty40s it’s not good.

 

It could work the other way, someone interested puts a deposit down that they know is refundable and they are hooked. Sale sorted. 

The same person finding the deposit is not refundable dithers goes away to “think about it” and the sale is lost. 
 

there maybe tyre kickers but you HAVE to see the boat with ABNB so you’ve made the effort to travel often some distance in all probability so any vendor has put themselves out to make the effort to get there. 
 

[Barneyp]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

But nevertheless you though they (and the boat) were sufficiently attractive to go with them... 😉

 

So it didn't put you off or cost you anything, but probably discouraged the gongoozlers and tirekickers so you got the boat you wanted more quickly and with less apparent competition. Isn't that a good thing? 🙂

It wouldn't have been such a "good thing" if the survey had uncovered tens of thousands of pounds of neccessary work, and he had lost his deposit plus the survey and haul out fee.

Brokers have a difficult job balancing the demands of legitimate genuine buyers, against the need to sell the boat in a reasonable time.

As long as they are clear and up front about their T&C's (it seems like ABNB may need to update their website) I don't think purchasers can complain, if you don't like it go elsewhere 

3 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Agree with Matty40s it’s not good.

 

It could work the other way, someone interested puts a deposit down that they know is refundable and they are hooked. Sale sorted. 

The same person finding the deposit is not refundable dithers goes away to “think about it” and the sale is lost. 
 

there maybe tyre kickers but you HAVE to see the boat with ABNB so you’ve made the effort to travel often some distance in all probability so any vendor has put themselves out to make the effort to get there. 
 

Unfortunately there are many people who would think of going to look at boats for sale as a day out, so it is not real proof of intent to buy.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Agree with Matty40s it’s not good.

 

It could work the other way, someone interested puts a deposit down that they know is refundable and they are hooked. Sale sorted. 

The same person finding the deposit is not refundable dithers goes away to “think about it” and the sale is lost. 
 

there maybe tyre kickers but you HAVE to see the boat with ABNB so you’ve made the effort to travel often some distance in all probability so any vendor has put themselves out to make the effort to get there. 
 

 

It's possible that given the high demand for boats recently and the number of newbies looking for a cheap new lifestyle afloat but with no real clue (see posts on CWDF...), ABNB were finding themselves swamped with clueless newbies desperate to get a boat and firing off "I wanna look at/buy this" requests to all and sundry -- but most of them turned out to be timewasters, who nevertheless took time and effort to deal with, which meant they couldn't give as good a service to genuine enquiries. The "non-refundable deposit" change to T&C could well be to try and discourage such timewasters...

 

6 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

It wouldn't have been such a "good thing" if the survey had uncovered tens of thousands of pounds of neccessary work, and he had lost his deposit plus the survey and haul out fee.

Brokers have a difficult job balancing the demands of legitimate genuine buyers, against the need to sell the boat in a reasonable time.

As long as they are clear and up front about their T&C's (it seems like ABNB may need to update their website) I don't think purchasers can complain, if you don't like it go elsewhere 

Unfortunately there are many people who would think of going to look at boats for sale as a day out, so it is not real proof of intent to buy.

...which ABNB T&C suggest could be a valid reason for refunding the deposit, if agreement between seller and buyer (e.g. lower price) can't be reached as a result.

Edited June 15, 2023 by IanD

[Barneyp]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

...

...which ABNB T&C suggest could be a valid reason for refunding the deposit, if agreement between seller and buyer (e.g. lower price) can't be reached as a result.

The problem is it that there are no hard and fast rules about what a valid reason for refunding is, it's up to the discretion of the broker.

That said, for me I would be okay with it if the boat looked OK, and the broker seemed ok, your already risking £1000+ on the survey so you need to be reasonably confident anyway.

[Guest]

If I pay for a holiday with a non refundable deposit but subsequently decide I dont want to go on that holiday, I lose that deposit. Thats what the T&C's state.

 

So what is the difference here?

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Barneyp said:

It wouldn't have been such a "good thing" if the survey had uncovered tens of thousands of pounds of neccessary work, and he had lost his deposit plus the survey and haul out fee.

Brokers have a difficult job balancing the demands of legitimate genuine buyers, against the need to sell the boat in a reasonable time.

As long as they are clear and up front about their T&C's (it seems like ABNB may need to update their website) I don't think purchasers can complain, if you don't like it go elsewhere 

Unfortunately there are many people who would think of going to look at boats for sale as a day out, so it is not real proof of intent to buy.

 You will never stop those, fender kickers are  different to buying a boat.

However, the  normal deposit should be refundable without quibble if the boat has 10% or more of its value in work needed without having to beg for your £1k back (having already laid out for survey ~£800 and lift out/docking £3-500)

Just now, M_JG said:

If I pay for a holiday with a non refundable deposit but subsequently decide I dont want to go on that holiday, I lose that deposit. Thats what the T&C's state.

 

So what is the difference here?

You pay for your holiday and then at the airport find the plane only has one wing, and there is no other possible way of getting away,  so you go home, you should expect a refund, not have to write to Mr Green with a plea for one.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Agree with Matty40s it’s not good.

 

It could work the other way, someone interested puts a deposit down that they know is refundable and they are hooked. Sale sorted. 

The same person finding the deposit is not refundable dithers goes away to “think about it” and the sale is lost. 
 

there maybe tyre kickers but you HAVE to see the boat with ABNB so you’ve made the effort to travel often some distance in all probability so any vendor has put themselves out to make the effort to get there. 
 

I suspect that if you are in the brokers office, and have said that you want to buy the boat and you are going to arrange a survey, and you get your cheque book/banking app out ready to pay the deposit, and then say "Just to avoid any misunderstandings, please can we amend the contract to say that in the event of the survey finding work needed to a value of £500 or more, then the deposit will be fully refunded", then the broker is going to agree to that (or agree to the principle, but haggle the threshold up a bit).

Edited June 15, 2023 by David Mack

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

 You pay for your holiday and then at the airport find the plane only has one wing, and there is no other possible way of getting away,  so you go home, you should expect a refund, not have to write to Mr Green with a plea for one.

 

The issue of what constitutes an entitlement to your deposit back based on boat (plane) condition has long since been a bit of a grey area though.

 

This sounds to me like the broker is simply insulating themselves against people just wasting their time.

[roland elsdon]

Pay deposit in haste repent at leisure.

[enigmatic]

31 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I suspect that if you are in the brokers office, and have said that you want to buy the boat and you are going to arrange a survey, and you get your cheque book/banking app out ready to pay the deposit, and then say "Just to avoid any misunderstandings, please can we amend the contract to say that in the event of the survey finding work needed to a value of £500 or more, then the deposit will be fully refunded", then the broker is going to agree to that (or agree to the principle, but haggle the threshold up a bit).

as far as I can see that essentially is the policy (with the assumption the deposit also isn't refunded if the seller agrees to fund/fix the surveyor-highlighted defects). The marketing literature isn't the contract.

 

But the basic principle of "you get the money back if you can't get the current owner to remedy significant flaws or if the survey report says DO NOT BUY THIS BOAT but not if you change your mind or the survey says it needs blacking" is pretty much the same I got from every one of a dozen brokers I asked in 2020, with the exception of Braunston who suggested they'd refund it for pretty much any reason and Alvecote that said they'd keep £300 as an admin fee regardless of whose fault it was the sale fell through. 

 

Not sure why we're getting so het up about an angry non-customer ranting on Google and a piece of marketing literature that says non-refundable asterisk unless we refund you because the boat has significant defects.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by enigmatic

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Pay deposit in haste repent at leisure.

 

Indeed. When we sold our boat in 2015 we had an offer made and deposit paid within about three weeks.

 

Offer was withdrawn within 48 hours before the boat was even close to being surveyed. Various reasons were put forward none of which related to the terms and conditiins that allowed for the deposit to be returned.

 

Deposit was lost and shared between Rugby Boats and myself on I think a 60/40 basis from memory. 60 tp uus 40 to RBS.

[DandV]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

You can't set your own personal T&C and impose them on the broker, they're the ones with a contract (and a boat!) offering to do business with you so it's up to them to set the T&C.

 

If you don't agree to their T&C then they won't do business with you, there are plenty more fish in the sea*** so you have no power over them...

 

*** at least that's the position now in a buyer's market -- if they've had a boat hanging round for ages like a bad smell and you're the first fish to bite in months they might entertain a T&C change...

There is another party in this.

The vendor.

A party who most certainly has already a signed contract with the broker., to proceed to represent them in locating and negotiating with potential buyers in an agreed manner, including any offer being made subject to the brokers standard conditions. 

So those brokers standard conditions are most likely already in place in the preceding contract, that between vendor and broker. 

That was certainly the case when we sold our boat through a broker.

And when choosing a broker, as a vendor we wanted to minimise our chances of being stuffed around on the sale by someone playing the "it needs this and this doing" when the boat was entirely as expected of a boat of it's age,  visual condition, and as described. 

 

[Mike Tee]

This business of 'if the survey shows work needed, provided the seller reduces his cost by that amount or gets the work done the deposit is not refunded' - well if it is found the boat needs serious overplating for example, I just don't want it.

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Mike Tee said:

This business of 'if the survey shows work needed, provided the seller reduces his cost by that amount or gets the work done the deposit is not refunded' - well if it is found the boat needs serious overplating for example, I just don't want it.

The contracts vary in detail, but might typically say that if work costing more than 10% of the sale price is required, the vendor must either complete the work or reduce the price by the estimated costs. Any more than 10% and the deal is off with the deposit returned to the buyer.

 

It seems to work OK with well presented boats. I can't see it working well with a scruffy boat where it's obvious poor condition is reflected in the price anyway. 

[MrsM]

You may remember Blue Knight from a few years ago. He was looking for a boat not long after we bought ours (2020). He found a boat he was really thrilled with but the survey threw up several expensive issues which caused him to have serious doubts about the boat - he wanted something that didn't need much doing and was probably rather naive when it comes to secondhand boats. After getting quotes for the work which exceeded 5% of the value he decided to pull out and asked for his deposit back. It seems that the issues the surveyor flagged were exaggerated and nothing like as bad as the report suggested - some were downright wrong apparently. The broker refused to refund and an unpleasant and expensive legal battle ensued. In the end he did get a refund, but had had to pay for legal support.. Knowledgeable individuals here are confident that the surveyor's report was deeply flawed and I'm sure they are right. However the buyer felt more inclined to trust his surveyor, who was protecting his interests, than the broker. It highlighted what a difficult area this is. There were no winners in this awkward situation - the broker had all the headache to deal with, the seller had time wasted and lost this particular sale and the buyer lost  £1000+ and has been off buying a boat for life. Only the surveyor - who caused all the confusion and upset - cane out if it unscathed.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, MrsM said:

You may remember Blue Knight from a few years ago. He was looking for a boat not long after we bought ours (2020). He found a boat he was really thrilled with but the survey threw up several expensive issues which caused him to have serious doubts about the boat - he wanted something that didn't need much doing and was probably rather naive when it comes to secondhand boats. After getting quotes for the work which exceeded 5% of the value he decided to pull out and asked for his deposit back. It seems that the issues the surveyor flagged were exaggerated and nothing like as bad as the report suggested - some were downright wrong apparently. The broker refused to refund and an unpleasant and expensive legal battle ensued. In the end he did get a refund, but had had to pay for legal support.. Knowledgeable individuals here are confident that the surveyor's report was deeply flawed and I'm sure they are right. However the buyer felt more inclined to trust his surveyor, who was protecting his interests, than the broker. It highlighted what a difficult area this is. There were no winners in this awkward situation - the broker had all the headache to deal with, the seller had time wasted and lost this particular sale and the buyer lost  £1000+ and has been off buying a boat for life. Only the surveyor - who caused all the confusion and upset - cane out if it unscathed.

 

Like for houses, surveyors reports are done partly as reassurance and partly in the hope that if there's anything bad they'll find it -- but like houses there's no guarantee of accuracy either way, the reports are usually either full of CYA clauses like "we didn't look under the carpets" or overstate minor problems (like above) to make it look like they've done a thorough job.

 

When we bought our house and put new windows in (which we knew was needed) and the front bay window wall turned out to need rebuilding -- massive holes under blown plaster on the inside which tapping the wall immediately showed up, gaps between bricks you could fit your hand on on the outside covered by pebbledashing -- the surveyor basically pointed to exclusion clauses and shrugged his shoulders.

 

They are masters at evading responsibility if they get something wrong or miss something... 😞

[MtB]

There is one aspect to all this not yet mentioned. T&Cs are not always enforced. Businesses have them in order reinforce their position on the odd occasion a dispute arises of if a customer is being unreasonable.

 

I would not be surprised if during an amicable purchase progressing in good faith an un-forseen and genuine problem crops up, most brokers would return a deposit even if their T&Cs allow them to keep it. The deposit is there as a demonstration of good faith, and to stop people changing their mind for no particular reason. There is a groundswell of expectation especially amongst younger people, that they should be able to back out of ANY transaction even after completion, just by sending the purchase back for a refund. With a second hand boat this is not the case. 

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, MtB said:

I would not be surprised if during an amicable purchase progressing in good faith an un-forseen and genuine problem crops up, most brokers would return a deposit even if their T&Cs allow them to keep it.

 

This did happen to us.

 

No1 Son was buying an expensive boat from a Broker in Plymouth, he was diagnosed with a Brain-Tumour which would require (probably) around 2 years of treatment, (Surgery followed by several courses of Chemo and Radio therapy treatment) having paid his deposit and arranged for a surveyor he began to 'stress' about it.

 

We were very fortunate that the Broker had a "Force Majeure" clause in their sales agreement.

 

We invoked this clause and the money was returned with all best wishes. I'm sure that in the circumstances, even without the clause, 'compassion for the situation' would have resulted in the same outcome.

 

For those unaware of the 'Force Majeure' clause. (It was a BMF contract - is this also used in 'canal boat contracts ?)................

 

Force Majeure.

A Party shall not be deemed in default of this Agreement, nor shall it hold the other Party responsible for, any cessation, interruption or delay in the performance of its obligations due to earthquake, flood, fire, storm, natural disaster, act of God, war, terrorism, armed conflict, labor strike, lockout, boycott, unavoidable casualty or other similar events beyond the reasonable control of the Party, provided that the Party relying upon this provision:

·         gives prompt written notice thereof, and

·         takes all steps reasonably necessary to mitigate the effects of the force majeure event.

·         If a force majeure event extends for a period in excess of 30 days in the aggregate, either Party may immediately terminate this Agreement upon written notice.

 

 

It does not appear in the RYA sales contract pro-forma

 

AGREEMENT FOR THE SALE AND PURCHASE OF A SECOND-HAND BOAT

An Agreement prepared by the Royal Yachting Association for the sale of a second-hand boat between persons not normally engaged in the business of buying and selling boats.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[booke23]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

There is one aspect to all this not yet mentioned. T&Cs are not always enforced. Businesses have them in order reinforce their position on the odd occasion a dispute arises of if a customer is being unreasonable.

 

I would not be surprised if during an amicable purchase progressing in good faith an un-forseen and genuine problem crops up, most brokers would return a deposit even if their T&Cs allow them to keep it. The deposit is there as a demonstration of good faith, and to stop people changing their mind for no particular reason. There is a groundswell of expectation especially amongst younger people, that they should be able to back out of ANY transaction even after completion, just by sending the purchase back for a refund. With a second hand boat this is not the case. 

 

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

This did happen to us.

 

No1 Son was buying an expensive boat from a Broker in Plymouth, he was diagnosed with a Brain-Tumour which would require (probably) around 2 years of treatment, (Surgery followed by several courses of Chemo and Radio therapy treatment) having paid his deposit and arranged for a surveyor he began to 'stress' about it.

 

We were very fortunate that the Broker had a "Force Majeure" clause in their sales agreement.

 

We invoked this clause and the money was returned with all best wishes. I'm sure that in the circumstances, even without the clause, 'compassion for the situation' would have resulted in the same outcome.

 

For those unaware of the 'Force Majeure' clause. (It was a BMF contract - is this also used in 'canal boat contracts ?)................

 

Force Majeure.

A Party shall not be deemed in default of this Agreement, nor shall it hold the other Party responsible for, any cessation, interruption or delay in the performance of its obligations due to earthquake, flood, fire, storm, natural disaster, act of God, war, terrorism, armed conflict, labor strike, lockout, boycott, unavoidable casualty or other similar events beyond the reasonable control of the Party, provided that the Party relying upon this provision:

·         gives prompt written notice thereof, and

·         takes all steps reasonably necessary to mitigate the effects of the force majeure event.

·         If a force majeure event extends for a period in excess of 30 days in the aggregate, either Party may immediately terminate this Agreement upon written notice.

 

 

It does not appear in the RYA sales contract pro-forma

 

AGREEMENT FOR THE SALE AND PURCHASE OF A SECOND-HAND BOAT

An Agreement prepared by the Royal Yachting Association for the sale of a second-hand boat between persons not normally engaged in the business of buying and selling boats.

 

Indeed. In fact James Milsop of Rugby boats mentions they will refund deposits in exceptional circumstances in this interview:- 

 

 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, MrsM said:

You may remember Blue Knight from a few years ago. He was looking for a boat not long after we bought ours (2020). He found a boat he was really thrilled with but the survey threw up several expensive issues which caused him to have serious doubts about the boat - he wanted something that didn't need much doing and was probably rather naive when it comes to secondhand boats. After getting quotes for the work which exceeded 5% of the value he decided to pull out and asked for his deposit back. It seems that the issues the surveyor flagged were exaggerated and nothing like as bad as the report suggested - some were downright wrong apparently. The broker refused to refund and an unpleasant and expensive legal battle ensued. In the end he did get a refund, but had had to pay for legal support.. Knowledgeable individuals here are confident that the surveyor's report was deeply flawed and I'm sure they are right. However the buyer felt more inclined to trust his surveyor, who was protecting his interests, than the broker. It highlighted what a difficult area this is. There were no winners in this awkward situation - the broker had all the headache to deal with, the seller had time wasted and lost this particular sale and the buyer lost  £1000+ and has been off buying a boat for life. Only the surveyor - who caused all the confusion and upset - cane out if it unscathed.

 

When we bought our boat the surveyor, someone 'well respected" and recommended on here stated all the wiring was defective as each end was not terminated with a ferrule. Something not required when our boat was built but something I believe may now be.

 

He stated that the work to add a ferrule to each wire needed to be completed (at god knows what cost) prior to sale. We took further advice and decided to press ahead with the purchase as we really really liked the boat.

 

The boat sold five years later with no mention of this being an issue.

 

He did however miss an issue that cost us several hundred pounds a year later.

 

 

#aboutasmuchuseasachocolateteapot

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, M_JG said:

When we bought our boat the surveyor, someone 'well respected" and recommended on here stated all the wiring was defective as each end was not terminated with a ferrule. Something not required when our boat was built but something I believe may now be.

 

 

Any post 1998 boat built by a commercial compay, (and, any DIY built and signed off as RCD / RCR compliant)  should (must) have used ferrules on the wires.

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Any post 1998 boat built by a commercial compay, (and, any DIY built and signed off as RCD / RCR compliant)  should (must) have used ferrules on the wires.

 

Or what?