Question about cilling a boat

[Kudzucraft]

Reading the story on the boat in Kegsworth lock it has raised a question I have had about this type of accident.

 

If you see what is happening fast enough can you not just close the gate(s) paddles emptying the lock? Then fill the lock enough to float the boat off. 

Or is the water flow through there to much to allow the gates to close?

Edited June 11, 2023 by Kudzucraft

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Kudzucraft said:

Reading the story on the boat in Kegsworth lock it has raised a question I have had about this type of accident.

 

If you see what is happening fast enough can you not just close the gate(s) emptying the lock? Then fill the lock enough to float the boat off. 

Or is the water flow through there to much to allow the gates to close?

 

 

I think you totally misunderstand what happens. Gate both ends are already closed.

 

 

[Rob-M]

I presume you mean close the paddles, if you notice soon enough then yes, close the paddles, which may take quite some force, to stop water draining.

[MtB]

Then as the water drains from the lock, the back end of the boat settles onto the cill and the bow continues to fall with the water level. The the increasing slope of the boat causes the bow to dip under the water level.

 

 

[Kudzucraft]

Just now, MtB said:

I think you totally misunderstand what happens. Gate both ends are already closed.

 

WOOPS  I said gates and I meant paddles. 

[David Mack]

Yes, if you see it happening soon enough you can close the bottom paddles to stop the lock emptying further, and if the boat has not yet gone down, cautiously refill the lock to float the stern off the cill. 

A lot depends on the particular circumstances. Open paddles can take longer to wind down (against the flow) than you might expect. But even if some water has been shipped over the bow or through the front well deck drains, such action can sometimes stop the boat sinking entirely. The chances in that case are better if the front doors are closed as that will stop the main cabin filling too quickly.

Edited June 11, 2023 by David Mack

[MtB]

Just now, Kudzucraft said:

 

WOOPS  I said gates and I meant paddles. 

 

Ah right I see. Re-reading your post substituting, then yes you can. But people don't notice sometimes, and this is what happens.

[Kudzucraft]

1 minute ago, Rob-M said:

I presume you mean close the paddles, if you notice soon enough then yes, close the paddles, which may take quite some force, to stop water draining.

Yes, I edited my original post.  Thank you.

 

[Captain Pegg]

I once had to do what the OP describes. The lock in question had bottom gate paddles which were dropped. The resulting sudden wave of water back down the lock almost overtopped the bow, as it did again on its return having been reflected off the bottom gates, coupled with the vertical motion of the bows.

 

I don’t think dropping ground paddles is a likely outcome. When I had a boat catch under a protusion on the cill I couldn’t do it and ended up winding both sides down. It’s an operation that takes much longer than you’d want in an emergency. Operating only one paddle if you think there’s a risk of hang up or snagging has some logic if there’s only one person attending the paddles.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[DShK]

One thing I have wondered is, is there a good method to close the paddles quickly? IE is it a case of winding down as fast as you can, or can you "drop" them by removing the ratchet and removing the windlass?

[PaulJ]

Having recently had to do the reverse- the boat was stuck under some ironwork and being held down - the one thing that forums dont take into account is panic.

Its easy to say on a forum Id do this or that.

In reality, the boatowners I saw it happen to, (were actually experienced and had done the lock loads of times) but just froze. In reality it probably wouldnt have been for long but you dont get long.

My big gob shouting to get the paddles down got the one half at the gates moving again as I did the same  but the steerer never actually left the boat which would have been alot quicker to lift paddles the other end than me having to run down to do it.

 

 

[robtheplod]

14 minutes ago, DShK said:

One thing I have wondered is, is there a good method to close the paddles quickly? IE is it a case of winding down as fast as you can, or can you "drop" them by removing the ratchet and removing the windlass?

i think if your boat is at risk would anyone criticise you just for dropping them?

[DShK]

6 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Having recently had to do the reverse- the boat was stuck under some ironwork and being held down - the one thing that forums dont take into account is panic.

Its easy to say on a forum Id do this or that.

In reality, the boatowners I saw it happen to, (were actually experienced and had done the lock loads of times) but just froze. In reality it probably wouldnt have been for long but you dont get long.

My big gob shouting to get the paddles down got the one half at the gates moving again as I did the same  but the steerer never actually left the boat which would have been alot quicker to lift paddles the other end than me having to run down to do it.

 

 

Yeah panic is a very real force, it's a shame we can't train for these situations specifically, because that's how you actually effectively prepare.

 

 

Just now, robtheplod said:

i think if your boat is at risk would anyone criticise you just for dropping them?

My question is more, *can* you drop the paddles - ie will that actually work, rather than *should* you

 

[ditchcrawler]

51 minutes ago, David Mack said:

  The chances in that case are better if the front doors are closed as that will stop the main cabin filling too quickly.

That is something we always do

3 minutes ago, DShK said:

My question is more, *can* you drop the paddles - ie will that actually work, rather than *should* you

 

No, probably not, the lock will only have dropped by 18" to 2 foot when hopefully you notice as the back end rests on the cill, the weight of water across the paddle still will stop it dropping. mNext time you work a lock, just try closing the paddle while the lock is three quarters full.

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

i think if your boat is at risk would anyone criticise you just for dropping them?

I think the problem is that some people on here will be used to their area, and know how to drop the paddles.

At an unfamiliar lock, where things might be expected to go wrong a bit more often, one needs to have a think about that scenario, for example using the spike on the C&H (a navigation with some short locks), I generally drop the paddles because unwinding them is just very slow. I had to learn how to do this. The long throw windlass may be essential in some situations, to open paddles, I'm just not sure about unwinding fast with it. I suppose a bit of practice will train the muscle memory. Sometimes they need one hand on the windlass, and one somewhere else.

Edited June 11, 2023 by LadyG

[PaulJ]

21 minutes ago, DShK said:

One thing I have wondered is, is there a good method to close the paddles quickly? IE is it a case of winding down as fast as you can, or can you "drop" them by removing the ratchet and removing the windlass?

I wound one and dropped the other.

Guess it all depends on where you are- be quicker winding some (think hydraulic ones and Ham Baker type)

[Rob-M]

7 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

i think if your boat is at risk would anyone criticise you just for dropping them?

You will likely find the paddles will not just drop, they will need winding down with some force.  The one occasion my wife tried winding down a top paddle, as a bottom gate had swung open as she wound it up, she was not able to wind the paddle back down as it was too difficult.

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

  I generally drop the paddles because unwinding them is just very slow. I had to learn how to do this.  

But have you ever tried doing it when the lock is three quarters full, its not going to happen and if you need to hold that dam stop up on the pawl with one hand while cranking and not slipping its even harder.

[dmr]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That is something we always do

No, probably not, the lock will only have dropped by 18" to 2 foot when hopefully you notice as the back end rests on the cill, the weight of water across the paddle still will stop it dropping. mNext time you work a lock, just try closing the paddle while the lock is three quarters full.

 

This is interesting and new to me. I quite often close a paddle, usually top but sometimes bottom, when a lock is half full and have never found that significant extra force is needed.  Maybe it only applies to some locks. I might go and experiment tomorrow 😀

[LadyG]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But have you ever tried doing it when the lock is three quarters full, its not going to happen and if you need to hold that dam stop up on the pawl with one hand while cranking and not slipping its even harder.

This is the C&H wooden paddle things, I'm not sure how long it would take to drop them by cranking, certainly it would seem a very long time.

The painters have been round this week, so the other mechanism is well painted, and everything stayed in place, but yes, it's not going to be easy peasy!

Edited June 11, 2023 by LadyG

[Naughty Cal]

16 minutes ago, LadyG said:

This is the C&H wooden paddle things, I'm not sure how long it would take to drop them by cranking, certainly it would seem a very long time.

The painters have been round this week, so the other mechanism is well painted, and everything stayed in place, but yes, it's not going to be easy peasy!

Best stay put then to be on the safe side

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DShK said:

One thing I have wondered is, is there a good method to close the paddles quickly? IE is it a case of winding down as fast as you can, or can you "drop" them by removing the ratchet and removing the windlass?

 

Yes, they will normally drop under their own weight. But sometimes they wont.

 

I used to routinely drop paddles this way but of course this is frowned upon by some, even if done in a safe and controlled manner such that they dont drop top fast and with a big crash.

 

I wil await all the reasons why even if done in a controlled way its stil not a good idea.

Edited June 11, 2023 by M_JG

[Rob-M]

I find a paddle will drop when the lock is full\empty but won't when lock is mid operation.  Although regularly now paddles won't drop when the lock is done.

[Kudzucraft]

Appreciate all the comments. It is something I have wondered for a long time.  And no doubt Panic can freeze someone in their tracks!

[MrsM]

2 hours ago, PaulJ said:

Having recently had to do the reverse- the boat was stuck under some ironwork and being held down - the one thing that forums dont take into account is panic.

Its easy to say on a forum Id do this or that.

In reality, the boatowners I saw it happen to, (were actually experienced and had done the lock loads of times) but just froze. In reality it probably wouldnt have been for long but you dont get long.

My big gob shouting to get the paddles down got the one half at the gates moving again as I did the same  but the steerer never actually left the boat which would have been alot quicker to lift paddles the other end than me having to run down to do it.

 

 

The panic element is why I asked questions in the other thread. Glad I'm not the only one that isn't confident they would know exactly what to do.