Butty

[Morris]

Sorry if this all gets a bit too Susie Dent, but I have a bit of an etymological question regarding the term butty.  Most books I have with info on working boats only refer to a butty as the unpowered boat towed by a motor, but one book states that the term was in use before powered boats and referred to boats being worked in pairs, butties being a term for mates. Has anyone else heard of this earlier usage? 

Also, strictly speaking, should a narrowboat without an engine be called a butty if it is on its own? And if not what should it be called? A Monkey boat? 

[David Mack]

Several possible sources here.

Butty boats are physically the same as the horse drawn narrow boats which preceded the development of motorised craft. So I suspect in the early days of motorisation they were just "boats", with the term "motor" or "motor boat" used to distinguish the newcomer.

[magpie patrick]

We have looked at this before - may be some interesting stuff in here...

 

Butty topic 2011

 

I found that doing a Google search for the South Wales colloquial term "Butty" meaning mate or companion - Google came up with me posting on the subject 12 years ago! 

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

the South Wales colloquial term "Butty" meaning mate or companion

And presumably from the same origin as the American "buddy".

[PeterScott]

[fanshaft]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

And presumably from the same origin as the American "buddy".

I understand so. 

[Tam & Di]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

So I suspect in the early days of motorisation they were just "boats", with the term "motor" or "motor boat" used to distinguish the newcomer.

 

In my experience boatmen running a pair simply used the word 'boat' if they meant the one with the motor, and 'butty' for the unpowered one.

 

Tam

[Morris]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Several possible sources here.

 

Most of those quotes are dated after the introduction of motor boats so its hard to tell if they are relevant. The quotes from 1858 and 1909 in section c2 hint at a butty being the second boat only, but it is unclear if either refer to a horse drawn working pair of narrowboats. The 1909 quote mentions horses but the arrangement of the boats does not sound like standard practice! 

 

1 hour ago, magpie patrick said:

We have looked at this before - may be some interesting stuff in here...

 

Butty topic 2011

 

I found that doing a Google search for the South Wales colloquial term "Butty" meaning mate or companion - Google came up with me posting on the subject 12 years ago! 

 

Haha, sadly it does seem that the number of people interested in these things is vanishingly small! Thanks, it is an interesting discussion, but I am now confused over the term 'monkey boat' as I was under the impression that it was one of the earliest names used for narrowboats, but that thread suggests that it is used for a motor! 

Alas, no mention of use of the term butty or butties prior to the invention of powered boats. 

[Tam & Di]

I've known the Scots term 'but and ben' since childhood, long before I heard the word 'butty' in canal terms. There is arguably some slight etymological connection conceptually. Wiki tells me:

But and ben (or butt and ben) is an architectural style for a simple building, usually applied to a residence. The etymology is from the Scots term for a two-roomed cottage.^[1] The term describes a basic design of "outer room" conjoined with "inner room" as a residential building plan; the outer room, used as an antechamber or kitchen, is the but, while the inner room is the ben.^[2] The word but, here, comes from Early Scots/Middle English "bouten" "outside", and ben from ES/ME "binnen", "inside".

 

Tam

[Ray T]

With regards to a "Monkey Boat" see here:

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Ray T

[Morris]

6 minutes ago, Ray T said:

With regards to a "Monkey Boat" see here:

 

 

Great thread, thanks! 

[magnetman]

Could it be because the boat is positioned at the arse end of a motor when towing ?

 

 

Butt being coloquial for bottom.

 

I don't know how long butt has meant bottom so this could be/is pure conjecture.

 

 

"Behind" is another link, of sorts.

 

 

[magpie patrick]

The south welsh term (bearing in mind much valleys Welsh is a bit of a dialect compared to the rest) is byti, pronounced butty, and as far as I know was someone who assisted down the mines - it became a universal term for "mate"

[Morris]

3 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

The south welsh term (bearing in mind much valleys Welsh is a bit of a dialect compared to the rest) is byti, pronounced butty, and as far as I know was someone who assisted down the mines - it became a universal term for "mate"

Presumably 'butt' (byt?) as a term of endearment in Wales is derived from this? I suppose the next question is: if two men were working down a mine were they bytis or was only one the byti of the other?

[magnetman]

There is a joke there somewhere. 

[roland elsdon]

If you have a pair of boats you make the tea steering the motor

In the mean time you partner who has less steering duties makes the butties.

At an appropriate bridge you drop off the motor pass your beloved the tea and are rewarded with your butties.

 

Hence butty boat. I was informed of this absolute fact on purchasing a butty in the 1980s by an old boater who said ‘ with a butty you will never go hungry’.

Sadly he was proven wrong, the advent of a butty meant many cups left congealing in bridge holes whilst the steerer starved, and the butty steerer got dehydrated.

 

Mobile phones made it worse , texting do you want branstone pickle while making butties and steering the butty lead to a number of fishing match related incidents, and a discussion of tea or coffee, lead to a succession of traumatised hirers.

 

In the end we gave up and bought a boat with a kitchen.

Butties were abandoned with the boat.

[Bee]

1 hour ago, Tam & Di said:

I^2] The word but, here, comes from Early Scots/Middle English "bouten" "outside", and ben from ES/ME "binnen", "inside".

 

Tam

Ah, the origins of words, Once you find a few similar words in a different language there are so many examples, French being latin is full of them. French for heat wave is canicule and the origin of that puzzled us but its from canicula - dog days when it was possible to see Sirius, the dog star in Canis Major and it was very hot. and of course 'binnen' in Dutch as in 'binnenschip is an inside ship not a sea going one.  As ever, happy to be corrected if I've jumped to conclusions that are wrong. Anyway back to my jam butty.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

Anyway back to my jam butty.

From the jam butty mines at Knotty Ash.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

  Anyway back to my jam butty.

I thought that was Andy's

[Mike Tee]

Maybe its because they 'butted up' next to the motor when in locks or moored (or occasionally in a flight if close)

[magnetman]

5 hours ago, David Mack said:

Several possible sources here.

Butty boats are physically the same as the horse drawn narrow boats which preceded the development of motorised craft. 

They are not similar to cabinless horse boats. 

 

Maybe the addition of a cabin made the boat look like a sandwich. 

 

 

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, Mike Tee said:

Maybe its because they 'butted up' next to the motor when in locks or moored (or occasionally in a flight if close)

 

I've always known this action as "Breasting up."

[Heartland]

Butty was a term used on canals such as the Grand Junction Canal where it referred to the boat accompanying another. The locks being wide enough to two boats the craft would often be paired up to pass through, saving water etc. Canal carriers often used two boats on routes such as to London.

 

Later with powered transport, steam, or internal combustion, the one was often the "motor boat", or "steamer" and the craft that was unpowered was generally known as the butty. Of course there are other names adopted to describe particular versions of craft such as "Bantock", Josher etc etc

 

 

[roland elsdon]

I always knew it as breasting up or ‘ getting it wrong’

The best being a perfect breast up outside the boat at stoke bruerne , in front of the hoards on a sunday, followed by straight into the top lock, engage reverse. Gear rod fell off, i nearly fell off the counter. Pair hit bottom gates with some attitude, as they stayed in forward. Did get a rope off but didnt help much.

 

Fortunately shouting at the hoards got them off the gate, if we had gone through the gates might have dented the no claim bonus.

[Heartland]

Well getting two boats into a lock together can work out all reet.