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Smartguage still the unit of choice?


PaulG

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Good morning all.
I have a boatload of Mastervolt equipment, and I'm not at all happy with the performance of the shunt system that allegedly provides SOC information for the domestic battery bank.


I'm moored up on a landline during the winter, and spend the summer months CC-ing, relying on alternator, solar and genny power.
I notice that the SOC reading gradually becomes more and more inaccurate, to the point when I saw that the solar system appeared to drop into float at an indicated 85% SOC.
I have discussed this with the suppliers of Mastervolt, and it seems that they can't do anything much until they see the system settings. This involves me spending around £150.00 on an MV USB interface with no guarantee that any improvement is possible.

 

You'll appreciate that I don't want to sit there burning expensive diesel for many hours to just get the batteries back to 100%; at this point, the MV system should reset.

Naturally, I'm looking at Smartguage as a potentially more accurate device.
Sadly, it's looking a bit old-fashioned now that Gibbo has sold the company and it hasn't been updated.

Can I ask the Smartgauge users if they are still happy with the performance, and would they buy the same again if it packed up?

I've had a good look around and I can't see any more "modern" units that would perform better than my current MV setup; if anyone knows better, advice will be gratefully received!

 

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Smartgage won't really help you. Its really good at giving the state of charge during discharge as this is what it was designed to do, but is not very good during charge, so won't reliably tell youy when to turn the engine off. I assume your Mastervolt system displays charge current?  this is the best measure of what is going on during charge.

Smartgage is still the best instrument for monitoring SOC during discharge, but is not a good investment if you have any plans to install Lithium in the near future.

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7 minutes ago, PaulG said:

Good morning all.
I have a boatload of Mastervolt equipment, and I'm not at all happy with the performance of the shunt system that allegedly provides SOC information for the domestic battery bank.


I'm moored up on a landline during the winter, and spend the summer months CC-ing, relying on alternator, solar and genny power.
I notice that the SOC reading gradually becomes more and more inaccurate, to the point when I saw that the solar system appeared to drop into float at an indicated 85% SOC.
I have discussed this with the suppliers of Mastervolt, and it seems that they can't do anything much until they see the system settings. This involves me spending around £150.00 on an MV USB interface with no guarantee that any improvement is possible.

 

You'll appreciate that I don't want to sit there burning expensive diesel for many hours to just get the batteries back to 100%; at this point, the MV system should reset.

Naturally, I'm looking at Smartguage as a potentially more accurate device.
Sadly, it's looking a bit old-fashioned now that Gibbo has sold the company and it hasn't been updated.

Can I ask the Smartgauge users if they are still happy with the performance, and would they buy the same again if it packed up?

I've had a good look around and I can't see any more "modern" units that would perform better than my current MV setup; if anyone knows better, advice will be gratefully received!

 

 

It does require a modicum of manual intervention but knowing when to stop charging is very simple simply using an ammeter and voltmeter.

 

When the charging voltage is at 14.2 or higher, and the charging current is a 'under' 2% of battery bank capacity (1% is better) for 2 hours then the battery(s) are fully charged.

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2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Smartgage won't really help you. Its really good at giving the state of charge during discharge as this is what it was designed to do, but is not very good during charge, so won't reliably tell youy when to turn the engine off. I assume your Mastervolt system displays charge current?  this is the best measure of what is going on during charge.

Smartgage is still the best instrument for monitoring SOC during discharge, but is not a good investment if you have any plans to install Lithium in the near future.

 

Agree about lithiums, but not so much about the known over read during charging problem. It is really only an issue with alternator or generator charging where there is a fuel and wear cost, but how hard is it to turn the engine off for a short while to allow the gauge to settle?

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12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Agree about lithiums, but not so much about the known over read during charging problem. It is really only an issue with alternator or generator charging where there is a fuel and wear cost, but how hard is it to turn the engine off for a short while to allow the gauge to settle?

 

Actually in my case at least, the Smartgage works pretty well and repeatably during charge, though maybe says 100% a bit too soon. But then as we all know trhat the 100% thing is a bit arbitrary and once every few weeks we should charge to well over 100% 😀.

Charge tail current really is the best measure of charging...though the cycling of the Adverc complicates this.

 

Due to surface charge effects etc, (again in my case), it can easily be a couple of hours between turning the engine off and the Smartgage dropping from 100 to 99% so short stops are not really a viable option.

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Thanks a lot for your input, guys.
I think the MV system is looking after charging OK.
My main interest is knowing the battery state when discharging to ensure that I'm not damaging my batteries.
e.g. if the MV system is indicating 85% when the reality is likely 100% or close to it, it's not much use to me.
I try not to discharge below 70% or so, at which point the MV unit may be indicating 55% or less, which does nothing for my peace of mind.
From what you have said, I think I will go with a Smartguage.

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9 minutes ago, PaulG said:

Thanks a lot for your input, guys.
I think the MV system is looking after charging OK.
My main interest is knowing the battery state when discharging to ensure that I'm not damaging my batteries.
e.g. if the MV system is indicating 85% when the reality is likely 100% or close to it, it's not much use to me.
I try not to discharge below 70% or so, at which point the MV unit may be indicating 55% or less, which does nothing for my peace of mind.
From what you have said, I think I will go with a Smartguage.

The Balmar SG200 is a much better SoC monitor than the Smartguage (it uses a current shunt as well as voltage) but is also more expensive.

 

https://marinehowto.com/balmar-sg200-self-learning-battery-monitor/

https://marinehowto.com/smartgauge-battery-monitoring-unit/

Edited by IanD
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If your main concern is battery state when discharging why can't you just supplement your existing method by monitoring the rested voltage? The only system I have is a cheap plug-in voltmeter in the cabin (initially checked for accuracy using a multi-strengths voltage reading on the solar MPPT controller) to make sure the voltage at bedtime is at least 12.6 and in the morning it's still well above 12.3.

 

I have managed to get a decent life out of cheap lead acid batteries so far using only this method of monitoring. I did consider a smartgauge but wasn't at all sure I'd do any better than I do without one.

Edited by Lily Rose
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1 hour ago, PaulG said:

Good morning all.
I have a boatload of Mastervolt equipment, and I'm not at all happy with the performance of the shunt system that allegedly provides SOC information for the domestic battery bank.


I'm moored up on a landline during the winter, and spend the summer months CC-ing, relying on alternator, solar and genny power.
I notice that the SOC reading gradually becomes more and more inaccurate, to the point when I saw that the solar system appeared to drop into float at an indicated 85% SOC.
I have discussed this with the suppliers of Mastervolt, and it seems that they can't do anything much until they see the system settings. This involves me spending around £150.00 on an MV USB interface with no guarantee that any improvement is possible.

 

You'll appreciate that I don't want to sit there burning expensive diesel for many hours to just get the batteries back to 100%; at this point, the MV system should reset.

Naturally, I'm looking at Smartguage as a potentially more accurate device.
Sadly, it's looking a bit old-fashioned now that Gibbo has sold the company and it hasn't been updated.

Can I ask the Smartgauge users if they are still happy with the performance, and would they buy the same again if it packed up?

I've had a good look around and I can't see any more "modern" units that would perform better than my current MV setup; if anyone knows better, advice will be gratefully received!

 

An update on the original Smatgauge is the one made by Balmar SG200 it has both the original SOC SW and method coupled with an amp counter/shunt.

 

Edited by churchward
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I fitted my smartgauge about 12 years ago and only touched it once. It has always read what I expect it to read and to be honest the slight drop in volts after stopping charging is hardly noticeable. I fitted new batteries after 9 years and the smartgauge soon settled down on the new ones. I would buy again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, tosher said:

I fitted my smartgauge about 12 years ago and only touched it once. It has always read what I expect it to read and to be honest the slight drop in volts after stopping charging is hardly noticeable. I fitted new batteries after 9 years and the smartgauge soon settled down on the new ones. I would buy again.

 

 

I feel much the same, I think its just over £100 now and is totally dependable, it gives a %SOC that I believe. It has a few quirks, it has a bad day after an equalisation or topping up the batteries, though this probably reflects battery behaviour rather than the Smartgage itself.  I just have a quick glance at it each time I walk past.

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2 hours ago, Lily Rose said:

If your main concern is battery state when discharging why can't you just supplement your existing method by monitoring the rested voltage? The only system I have is a cheap plug-in voltmeter in the cabin (initially checked for accuracy using a multi-strengths voltage reading on the solar MPPT controller) to make sure the voltage at bedtime is at least 12.6 and in the morning it's still well above 12.3.

 

I have managed to get a decent life out of cheap lead acid batteries so far using only this method of monitoring. I did consider a smartgauge but wasn't at all sure I'd do any better than I do without one.

I never get to see the rested voltage as I've got loads of electrical kit on board, so there is always a load on the batteries.

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20 minutes ago, PaulG said:

I never get to see the rested voltage as I've got loads of electrical kit on board, so there is always a load on the batteries.

Get a Balmar SG200 then... 😉

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46 minutes ago, IanD said:

Get a Balmar SG200 then... 😉

It does look good, but it starts at £400, so if the OP already has a good readout of amps the older Smartgage is probably the more cost effective option.

 

I would be tempted to get two SG200's, one set to display SOC and one to display current, so that I can see what I need to know without having to press buttons, but thats even more money. 😀

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4 hours ago, PaulG said:

Thanks a lot for your input, guys.
I think the MV system is looking after charging OK.
My main interest is knowing the battery state when discharging to ensure that I'm not damaging my batteries.
e.g. if the MV system is indicating 85% when the reality is likely 100% or close to it, it's not much use to me.
I try not to discharge below 70% or so, at which point the MV unit may be indicating 55% or less, which does nothing for my peace of mind.
From what you have said, I think I will go with a Smartguage.

 

Let us know how you get on I have same MV system but have been considering a smartgauge. The MICC gives the charge amps okay and the battery voltage when discharging. Now and again it all goes awry and gives some odd readings. Like you I never let the batteries get below 70%.

 

BTW was that you moored at Horbury Bridge in October?

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

It does look good, but it starts at £400, so if the OP already has a good readout of amps the older Smartgage is probably the more cost effective option.

 

I would be tempted to get two SG200's, one set to display SOC and one to display current, so that I can see what I need to know without having to press buttons, but thats even more money. 😀

Smartgauge (good) is about £120 inc VAT, SG200 (better) is about £340 inc VAT -- you pays yer money and you takes yer choice... 😉

 

Having two seems like overkill since a single button press cycles round the displayed values...

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16 hours ago, Midnight said:

 

Let us know how you get on I have same MV system but have been considering a smartgauge. The MICC gives the charge amps okay and the battery voltage when discharging. Now and again it all goes awry and gives some odd readings. Like you I never let the batteries get below 70%.

 

BTW was that you moored at Horbury Bridge in October?

Hi there - it may have been my old boat (sold last year).
Which reminds me to update my profile...
🙂

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Thanks to everyone for their input, you've all been very helpful as always.
I've decided to go down the Balmar route, as it seemed to me to be a more up-to-date version of the venerable Smartguage.
It seems that the makers have some experience of Smartguage, either as a reseller or a manufacturer, as they mention it on their website.
They may well have reverse-engineered it in order to come up with their own unit.
The deciding factor for me was the Bluetooth option, which enables future software updates as well as making the unit's display optional.
I will probably only wire in the display unit if their Bluetooth app proves unreliable or inconvenient.
Thanks again...

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1 hour ago, PaulG said:

Thanks to everyone for their input, you've all been very helpful as always.
I've decided to go down the Balmar route, as it seemed to me to be a more up-to-date version of the venerable Smartguage.
It seems that the makers have some experience of Smartguage, either as a reseller or a manufacturer, as they mention it on their website.
They may well have reverse-engineered it in order to come up with their own unit.
The deciding factor for me was the Bluetooth option, which enables future software updates as well as making the unit's display optional.
I will probably only wire in the display unit if their Bluetooth app proves unreliable or inconvenient.
Thanks again...

 

Not according to marinehowto...

 

"The Balmar SG200 is a self-learning battery monitor which was 100% developed in-house by CDI/Balmar. Compass Marine Inc. / MarineHowTo.com worked quite closely with CDI/Balmar, along with other Balmar dealers, to identify what we wanted to see in a fresh new battery monitor."

 

"Like all good things the SG200 did not just happen over-night. All told, it took nearly 4 years to get from ideas on paper to an Alpha level product for testing. Here at Compass Marine Inc. we’ve conducted nearly an entire years worth of testing the SG200. It’s actually still on-going every time we come up with a new way to possibly trip it up or we come across a battery we believe can trip it up. Like most products the SG200 did not come out of the lab “prime-time” ready and a number of software tweaks were made along the way before the finished product began shipping."

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1 hour ago, PaulG said:

Thanks to everyone for their input, you've all been very helpful as always.
I've decided to go down the Balmar route, as it seemed to me to be a more up-to-date version of the venerable Smartguage.
It seems that the makers have some experience of Smartguage, either as a reseller or a manufacturer, as they mention it on their website.
They may well have reverse-engineered it in order to come up with their own unit.
The deciding factor for me was the Bluetooth option, which enables future software updates as well as making the unit's display optional.
I will probably only wire in the display unit if their Bluetooth app proves unreliable or inconvenient.
Thanks again...

 

How does it compare to the MV MICC?

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On 07/03/2023 at 11:08, Lily Rose said:

If your main concern is battery state when discharging why can't you just supplement your existing method by monitoring the rested voltage? The only system I have is a cheap plug-in voltmeter in the cabin (initially checked for accuracy using a multi-strengths voltage reading on the solar MPPT controller) to make sure the voltage at bedtime is at least 12.6 and in the morning it's still well above 12.3.

 

I have managed to get a decent life out of cheap lead acid batteries so far using only this method of monitoring. I did consider a smartgauge but wasn't at all sure I'd do any better than I do without one.

 

Voltage isn't a great method of assessing battery state of charge unless as you suggest you're doing so with no charge and no discharge. That's not very convenient as a liveaboard. 

On 07/03/2023 at 09:52, PaulG said:

Good morning all.
I have a boatload of Mastervolt equipment, and I'm not at all happy with the performance of the shunt system that allegedly provides SOC information for the domestic battery bank.


I'm moored up on a landline during the winter, and spend the summer months CC-ing, relying on alternator, solar and genny power.
I notice that the SOC reading gradually becomes more and more inaccurate, to the point when I saw that the solar system appeared to drop into float at an indicated 85% SOC.
I have discussed this with the suppliers of Mastervolt, and it seems that they can't do anything much until they see the system settings. This involves me spending around £150.00 on an MV USB interface with no guarantee that any improvement is possible.

 

You'll appreciate that I don't want to sit there burning expensive diesel for many hours to just get the batteries back to 100%; at this point, the MV system should reset.

Naturally, I'm looking at Smartguage as a potentially more accurate device.
Sadly, it's looking a bit old-fashioned now that Gibbo has sold the company and it hasn't been updated.

Can I ask the Smartgauge users if they are still happy with the performance, and would they buy the same again if it packed up?

I've had a good look around and I can't see any more "modern" units that would perform better than my current MV setup; if anyone knows better, advice will be gratefully received!

 

 

Why can't you just use tail current readings on your shunt battery monitor to tell you when to stop charging?

 

Anything within about 10% of your battery bank capacity is sufficient, so if you have a 600 Ah battery bank when the tail charge gets down to about 5 amps you can stop. Occasionally try to take it down to 1 amp.

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As far as I am aware, Merlin equipment bought Smartgauge from the original designer/inventor (Gibbo) and they sold it to Balmar but also retain selling it under license along with the Smartbank split charging system.

 

The Balmar SG200 is not a reverse-engineered product but a development from the Smartgauge product with its SW.  Gibbo was working on a shunt and smartgauge product when he sold it to Merlin but I do not know if that has emerged as the SG200.

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4 hours ago, blackrose said:

Anything within about 10% of your battery bank capacity is sufficient

 

Isn't the recommendation that it should be below 2% and nearer 1% is better.

 

10% capacity of my 1300Ah battery bank is 130 amps which I never get going in right from the start - let alone as a tail current.

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