Residential moorings in a marina

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

See example 2

 

 

 

 

 

I can't see any definition of "Residential Use" in example two. Or anywhere on your document.

 

 

[JemShaun]

I was always lead to believe that if you pay CT on a property, then have a holiday home ( which a boat is) the you have to pay CT for both, all Beit at a reduced rate for the holiday home. 

[IanD]

Just now, JemShaun said:

I was always lead to believe that if you pay CT on a property, then have a holiday home ( which a boat is) the you have to pay CT for both, all Beit at a reduced rate for the holiday home. 

Or an increased rate in some places...

[LadyG]

2 minutes ago, JemShaun said:

I was always lead to believe that if you pay CT on a property, then have a holiday home ( which a boat is) the you have to pay CT for both, all Beit at a reduced rate for the holiday home. 

A boat is not a house.

[JemShaun]

No its a dwelling, a dwelling is charged CT

 

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Or an increased rate in some places...

👍

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

A boat is not a house.

I never said house, I said home

[Alan de Enfield]

38 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I can't see any definition of "Residential Use" in example two. Or anywhere on your document.

 

 

 

 

OK.

 

I'm sure you noted that the title of the table is "Residential Use and the likely requirement for planning permission" and the 1st line in the table "types of residential use of the waterways"

 

(Maybe I should have explained this is a table from a document called "Residential Use of the Waterways", but I thought the title would be self explanatory)

 

Planning permission is required if on the same mooring for more than 28 days in a 12 month period.

If it has planning permission for residential use then CT will be applied.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[BilgePump]

12 minutes ago, JemShaun said:

I was always lead to believe that if you pay CT on a property, then have a holiday home ( which a boat is) the you have to pay CT for both, all Beit at a reduced rate for the holiday home. 

Oddly enough, you can have single person discount (25%) on primary residence and need to pay full CT on second home. Not always the property owner, can be a tenant.

 

PS: Congratulations on deciding to go back to the canals. That's a very healthy budget and you know what you're looking at. As the house market and all others seem to be slowing, I'm guessing your boat budget will find you something quite special.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Oddly enough, you can have single person discount (25%) on primary residence and need to pay full CT on second home. Not always the property owner, can be a tenant.

 

PS: Congratulations on deciding to go back to the canals. That's a very healthy budget and you know what you're looking at. As the house market and all others seem to be slowing, I'm guessing your boat budget will find you something quite special.

 

In North Wales they have now imposed a 3x CT surcharge on 'non-main' houses (holiday holmes)

 

Maybe that would / could / should apply to boaters who live on board but also have a house.

[BilgePump]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In North Wales they have now imposed a 3x CT surcharge on 'non-main' houses (holiday holmes)

 

Maybe that would / could / should apply to boaters who live on board but also have a house.

What's Sherlock got to do do with it Alan? Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Isn't Cornwall in a similar position where locals are being priced out by empty holiday homes or AirBnBs? Places in the Lake District etc too.

 

 

[LadyG]

42 minutes ago, JemShaun said:

No its a dwelling, a dwelling is charged CT

 

👍

I never said house, I said home

The legal rules are different . Just like a dog is not a cat 

[MtB]

52 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

OK.

 

I'm sure you noted that the title of the table is "Residential Use and the likely requirement for planning permission" and the 1st line in the table "types of residential use of the waterways"

 

(Maybe I should have explained this is a table from a document called "Residential Use of the Waterways", but I thought the title would be self explanatory)

 

Planning permission is required if on the same mooring for more than 28 days in a 12 month period.

If it has planning permission for residential use then CT will be applied.

 

 

 

i'm not quibbling about whether CT is chargeable. I'm quibbling about how the council differentiate between a residential use and leisure use.

 

I don't think they can. Or if they can, how do they do it?

 

 

[magnetman]

4 hours ago, magnetman said:

I wonder how the LA found out people were actually living there. 

 

 

How would they establish this in each individual case? Or were the moorings let as residential by the operator? 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

i'm not quibbling about whether CT is chargeable. I'm quibbling about how the council differentiate between a residential use and leisure use.

 

I don't think they can. Or if they can, how do they do it?

 

 

 

I'm suggesting that if the same boat is 'lived on' for 28+ days on the same mooring they consider it is a residential mooring.

 

If you are meaning that the LA cannot differentiate between a boat used for leisure vs residential I agree, I doubt they can - but they wouldn't want to as it is the mooring that attracts CT not the boat.

[magnetman]

That is true. I pay CT for my residential mooring regardless of whether the boat is actually moored there. The residential status effectively refers to the piece of land beneath the water and the right to place a boat above it for a prolonged period and be eligible to access various local authority services. 

 

The detail of the boat which is located there is not a relevant concern as long as it fits in with the planning consent. 

 

My council tax bill does not have a boat name it just says "Lord xxxx. Residential Mooring X, xx xxxxxxxx, xxxxxxx, xxx xxx. 

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'm suggesting that if the same boat is 'lived on' for 28+ days on the same mooring they consider it is a residential mooring.

 

If you are meaning that the LA cannot differentiate between a boat used for leisure vs residential I agree, I doubt they can - but they wouldn't want to as it is the mooring that attracts CT not the boat.

Only if there's a boat on it.  Otherwise it pretty comprehensively fails to meet the basic requirements of a habitable dwelling.  It's too wet for starters.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Only if there's a boat on it.  Otherwise it pretty comprehensively fails to meet the basic requirements of a habitable dwelling.  It's too wet for starters.

 

The planning permission is on the mooring, not on the boat. It has either, PP for leisure use, or PP for Residential use.  I guess a leisure mooring with no boat on it would be a bit wet as well. 

CT will be payable on the mooring even without a boat on it, just as it is on a house when you (we) go away cruising for several months in the Summer.

 

If it is used by the same 'lived on boat' for 28 days per annum then it is residential.

And, the same rules apply for Winter moorings - these 3 / 4 / 5 month Winter moorings should all have residential planning permission**, but you don't see many boaters pointing out that they don't have PP in case they "rock the boat".

 

** But as MtB repeatedly points out if you get "caught" you'll be 'long gone' by the time they write all the letters & get around to taking you to court

Edited March 2, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And, the same rules apply for Winter moorings - these 3 / 4 / 5 month Winter moorings should all have residential planning permission, but you don't see many boaters pointing out that they don't have PP in case they "rock the boat".

If you are referring to CRT towpath moorings then sure they don't actually have an allocated spot, just somewhere on a length of bank. but like lots of things I wouldn't want to "delve deeply into it" (pun intended but poor)

[doratheexplorer]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The planning permission is on the mooring, not on the boat. It has either, PP for leisure use, or PP for Residential use.  I guess a leisure mooring with no boat on it would be a bit wet as well. 

CT will be payable on the mooring even without a boat on it, just as it is on a house when you (we) go away cruising for several months in the Summer.

 

If it is used by the same 'lived on boat' for 28 days per annum then it is residential.

And, the same rules apply for Winter moorings - these 3 / 4 / 5 month Winter moorings should all have residential planning permission**, but you don't see many boaters pointing out that they don't have PP in case they "rock the boat".

 

** But as MtB repeatedly points out if you get "caught" you'll be 'long gone' by the time they write all the letters & get around to taking you to court

You're confusing planning permission with requiring payment of council tax.  These are two seperate things.  An empty mooring is not like an empty house.  Council tax is not payable on something uninhabitable.  The fact that some people continue to pay while the mooring is empty and the Council are happy to take their money doesn't change this.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/council-tax-domestic-properties-in-disrepair-or-derelict/council-tax-domestic-properties-which-are-in-disrepair-or-are-derelict

Edited March 2, 2023 by doratheexplorer

[GUMPY]

Fenland Council charge council tax on boats on  leisure moorings unless you can produce a council tax bill with your name on it.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Loddon

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You're confusing planning permission with requiring payment of council tax.  These are two seperate things.  An empty mooring is not like an empty house.  Council tax is not payable on something uninhabitable.  The fact that some people continue to pay while the mooring is empty and the Council are happy to take their money doesn't change this.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/council-tax-domestic-properties-in-disrepair-or-derelict/council-tax-domestic-properties-which-are-in-disrepair-or-are-derelict

My residential mooring has a council tax band.

 

Nobody is going to live here without a boat. It doesn't seem to me to fall into any of the categories on the link you provided because it is a boat mooring and not a land property. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You're confusing planning permission with requiring payment of council tax.  These are two seperate things.  An empty mooring is not like an empty house.  Council tax is not payable on something uninhabitable.  The fact that some people continue to pay while the mooring is empty and the Council are happy to take their money doesn't change this.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/council-tax-domestic-properties-in-disrepair-or-derelict/council-tax-domestic-properties-which-are-in-disrepair-or-are-derelict

 

Why have you chosen to quote derelict houses council tax :

 

In fact not only do you have to pay CT on empty properties, if it is empty for 2 years you have to pay a higher rate of CT

 

How Council Tax works: Second homes and empty properties - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

Remember IT IS THE MOORING THAT IS SUBJECT TO CT irrespective of it having a boat attached or not attached.

 

Empty properties

You’ll usually have to pay Council Tax on an empty home, but your council can decide to give you a discount - the amount is up to them. Contact your council to ask about a discount.

 

Some homes do not get a Council Tax bill for as long as they stay empty. They include homes:

• of someone in prison (except for not paying a fine or Council Tax)
• of someone who’s moved into a care home or hospital
• that have been repossessed
• that cannot be lived in by law, for example if they’re derelict
• that are empty because they’ve been compulsory purchased and will be demolished

Edited March 2, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

I imagine the banding was achieved by assumption of the kind of boat which would occupy the mooring. Obviously if the mooring is empty and not being paid for then nobody will be paying CT but if you are paying the rent then you pay the CT regardless of whether you arrr there or not.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Nobody is going to live here without a boat. It doesn't seem to me to fall into any of the categories on the link you provided because it is a boat mooring and not a land property. 

 

Probably because the link related to derelict and under repair properties, not just 'empty' properties.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Probably because the link related to derelict and under repair properties, not just 'empty' properties.

It seemed to be referring to property based on land rather than boats. 

 

If there is to be argument about the subject it seems to me to be more relevant if it directly applies to boats. 

 

Or was the suggestion that a mooring with no boat on it is an "empty property"? 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Or was the suggestion that a mooring with no boat on it is an "empty property"? 

 

Yes.