When is a charity not a charity?

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Never published due to incorrect title. It should have been -

 

 

So if it was never published, why was it written?

 

 

[Orwellian]

Books can if course be self published especially one like this. Vanity project probably.

[David Mack]

44 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

How weird!

 

I don't think I've ever seen ANY book without the publisher, author, edition, ISBN etc noted on a flyleaf inside right at the start.

 

ISBN is sometimes on the back of the hardback cover, too IIRC.

I've never quite understood how the publishing industry ensures that (almost) every book has an ISBN. I can see that with the major publishers signed up it would work for mainstream books, but what about small independent publishers or self-published books? Since the ISBN scheme will cost money to run there must be a fee to be listed and I can imagine some would choose to avoid it. Or is it a legal requirement for books to be listed? And if so, what is a 'book' for these purposes, and how is it enforced? And what about e-books, often written, edited, formatted and distributed online by the author with no publishing or printing industry input at all?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 minute ago, Orwellian said:

Books can if course be self published especially one like this. Vanity project probably.

I think Hales did get a book actually published on pensions about five years back. He has been something to do with the NAAFI pension scheme for years.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I've never quite understood how the publishing industry ensures that (almost) every book has an ISBN.

 

I used to wonder the same. I concluded that getting an ISBN for your publication was simply self interest, in that there is no harm in having it and it ensures people seeing a copy of one's book can always positively identify it and order a copy for themselves. I guess this still applies even in this world of internettiness. Why would one ever not get an ISBN?

 

On ebooks I have no idea. I never read them. I tried one once and it was rubbish...

 

 

 

 

 

A brief search turns up some answers! Yes an ISBN for your book can be had for $35.

 

https://www.isbnagency.com/

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

14 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

Just picked up a copy of Tony Hales’s book on the formation of CRT, notes this on a potential charity:

I liked Hales use of "Commercial Interest Company (CIC)". When most people think of CIC they take it to mean Community Interest Company.

 

.... which is exactly what Canal & River Trading (CIC) is.

 

It does not provide dividends as suggested in the book but makes donations with gift aid which I assume is more tax efficient.

[Orwellian]

55 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I liked Hales use of "Commercial Interest Company (CIC)". When most people think of CIC they take it to mean Community Interest Company.

 

.... which is exactly what Canal & River Trading (CIC) is.

 

It does not provide dividends as suggested in the book but makes donations with gift aid which I assume is more tax efficient.

Good to see he was on top of the detail.

[cuthound]

17 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

Just picked up a copy of Tony Hales’s book on the formation of CRT, notes this on a potential charity:

 

Did you get it in a Charity shop? 😂

[Jon57]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

Did you get it in a Charity shop? 😂

Probably water damaged goods.👍

[Tim Lewis]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Is there an ISBN ?

Yes, on the back cover

 

3 hours ago, Orwellian said:

Thanks. So where did you 'pick it up' from?

A library shelf

Edited March 16, 2023 by Tim Lewis

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

Yes, on the back cover

 

A library shelf

 

It's great fun being perverse like this isn't it? Accurately answering someone's exact question whilst avoiding giving the info they really wanted! 

[Orwellian]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

It's great fun being perverse like this isn't it? Accurately answering someone's exact question whilst avoiding giving the info they really wanted! 

More often referred to as being an irritating tw*t.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

More often referred to as being an irritating tw*t.

 

 

Only my immaculate manners prevented me from saying the same....

 

 

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

3 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

Yes, on the back cover

 

A library shelf

https://www.bl.uk/legal-deposit is also relevant....

[Mike Todd]

8 hours ago, David Mack said:

I've never quite understood how the publishing industry ensures that (almost) every book has an ISBN. I can see that with the major publishers signed up it would work for mainstream books, but what about small independent publishers or self-published books? Since the ISBN scheme will cost money to run there must be a fee to be listed and I can imagine some would choose to avoid it. Or is it a legal requirement for books to be listed? And if so, what is a 'book' for these purposes, and how is it enforced? And what about e-books, often written, edited, formatted and distributed online by the author with no publishing or printing industry input at all?

ISBN was an important innovation at the time. It comprises three parts. The first denotes the publisher and is the only part that needs significant central coordination. The second part identifies the book within the publisher's list.  The final part is a check digit which helps ensure errors are detected.

 

The really neat bit was to allow differing numbers of figures in the first two parts. This recognises that there are a few publishers with large lists and many with only a few titles. The number of digits in the second part relates to the size if the publisher so in order to maintain a fixed total length, larger publishers have fewer digits in the first part. 

 

Always seemed to me to be ingenious and has stood the test of time.

[Tim Lewis]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

It's great fun being perverse like this isn't it? Accurately answering someone's exact question whilst avoiding giving the info they really wanted! 

the reason I did not give the number is because I don’t know it, rather than sitting in a library I have been boating today on the Regents Canal, I won’t be in the library tomorrow either as I will be on the tidal Thanes

3 hours ago, Orwellian said:

More often referred to as being an irritating tw*t.

#

Thanks for that, you asked a question and I took time out to edit and post a picture of the book that I had taken in anticipation that the question would be asked.

 

Please do not ask me any more stuff as I really cannot be assed to reply to you.

[Ronaldo47]

Possibly it was produced for limited circulation rather than for issue to the public at large. Since retiring over a decade ago I have not kept up with copyright law, but my understanding is that "publication" of literary works is still  defined in Section 175 of the Copyright, Designs & Patents Act 1988.  Ignoring the references to "electronic publication" , films , etc., in the interest of conciseness, we have

 

(1)   In this Part,  'publication",  in relation to a work - 

  (a) means the issue of copies to the public, and

  (b)  [ electronic]

and related expressions shall be construed accordingly.

 

(2)   In this Part,  "commercial publication", in relation to a literary .... Work means -

  (a)  issuing copies of the work to the public at a time when copies made in advance of the receipt of orders are generally made available to the public, or 

(b) [ electronic ]

   and related expressions shall be construed accordingly.

 

(3)  [architecture]

 

(4)  The following do not constitute publication for the purposes of this Part and references to commercial publication shall be construed accordingly -

  (a) in the case of a literary .... work -

      (i)  the performance of the work, or

      (ii) the communication to the public of the work (other than for the purposes of an electronic retrieval system);  

    (b) [artistic work]

    (c) [sound recording or film]

 

(5) References in this Part to publication or commercial publication do not include publication which is merely colourable and not intended to satisfy the reasonable requirements of the public. 

 

(6)  No account shall be taken for the purposes of this section of any unauthorised act.

 

So if the document was created for internal use, or limited circulation only (not intended to satisfy the reasonable requirements of the public), then it arguably would not be a "publication"  for the purposes of copyright law and so would not need to  have an ISBN. But at the end of the day, only the courts can definitively say what the law is.  

 

 

Under the "Legal Deposit Libraries Act 2003" , copies of any  document that has been "published", must be filed, at the publisher's expense, with a "deposit library" specified in the Act ( the British Library, and possibly also the National Library of Scotland, National Library of Wales,  The Bodlean Library Oxford, University Library Cambridge, Trinity College Library Dublin). This requirement does not apply to  documents that have not been "published". 

 

Note that this definition of "published"  does not necessarily apply to other aspects of the law. For example, in the case of patents, virtually any sort of public disclosure is treated as "publication", including a document that the public can read, but not get their own copy of, and so is not a "publication" for the purposes of copyright law. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Orwellian]

2 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

Thanks for that, you asked a question and I took time out to edit and post a picture of the book that I had taken in anticipation that the question would be asked.

 

Please do not ask me any more stuff as I really cannot be assed to reply to you.

I won't don't worry. I think you deliberately gave everyone the impression the book was in your possession so you could play your rather juvenile game.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

the reason I did not give the number is because I don’t know it, rather than sitting in a library I have been boating today on the Regents Canal, I won’t be in the library tomorrow either as I will be on the tidal Thanes

#

Thanks for that, you asked a question and I took time out to edit and post a picture of the book that I had taken in anticipation that the question would be asked.

 

Please do not ask me any more stuff as I really cannot be assed to reply to you.

 

In the light of this further information, I apologise for my support of the "tw*t" post. 

 

I do think you could have expanded a little at the time though.

 

 

[Ianws]

 

The title of the book says it is "a personal account". That puts some perspective on the content quoted. Im not commenting on that content, just that it's a personal account.

[Tim Lewis]

8 hours ago, Ianws said:

 

The title of the book says it is "a personal account". That puts some perspective on the content quoted. Im not commenting on that content, just that it's a personal account.

I only had time for a quick scan of the book  but it did appear to give an interesting insight into negotiating with a government department with a revolving door of ministers.

[tree monkey]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

In the light of this further information, I apologise for my support of the "tw*t" post. 

 

I do think you could have expanded a little at the time though.

 

 

Out of curiosity I tried to do a search, including the British library, for the title and author thanking I could find the ISBN and no luck at all.

This of course could be my incompetence 

[Ronaldo47]

That would be consistent with it being legally an unpublished document.

 

Alternatively, the library's records could be defective: I occasionally had that experience with the old Science Reference Library in Holborn with a book which had changed its title slightly and where the earlier edition could only be traced via the older card index rather than the newer microfiche index.  I used to  regularly cite the earlier edition as it contained stuff that got omitted from the later editions, and often had to explain to enquirers how to find it after the library had said they didn't have it.  That was circa 1980: goodness knows what the situation is now with everything computerised. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Tim Lewis]

On 16/03/2023 at 09:37, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Is there an ISBN ?

Back in the library:

 

 

[Orwellian]

Not found.