When is a charity not a charity?

[Arthur Marshall]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

An old mate of mine is a professional charity fundraiser. He approaches a charity and offers to raise their income, in return for 1% of the amount by which he raises their income.

 

He makes a stunningly good living out of it with all his kids in private skools and a very nice house in a prosperous village on the banks of the Thames. And yet I find it hard to criticise, although I'm sure you lot will manage it. 

 

 

 

 

A friend of mine did much the same for a number of years, and was very well off for a while. In the end she got fed up with it and started her own business instead.

12 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

This sounds pretty much like complete BS to me,

 

Name the charity for starters.

No, it's quite possible, as I say. There's a technique to applying for grants, finding them, and getting the application right. It takes a lot of time and most charities don't have the time or expertise to do it. When grants come in multi-thousand pound dollops, and occasionally up to a million, 1% is pretty good money. It's more to do with that than running jumble sales! And you don't do it for one charity,  you're a consultant to many.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A friend of mine did much the same for a number of years, and was very well off for a while. In the end she got fed up with it and started her own business instead.

No, it's quite possible, as I say. There's a technique to applying for grants, finding them, and getting the application right. It takes a lot of time and most charities don't have the time or expertise to do it. When grants come in multi-thousand pound dollops, and occasionally up to a million, 1% is pretty good money. It's more to do with that than running jumble sales! And you don't do it for one charity,  you're a consultant to many.

 

I dont believe a word he says.

 

Sorry.

 

Edit - By that I mean it may be poss, but he made up the bit he knows somebody that did it.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by M_JG

[Ronaldo47]

3 hours ago, Iain_S said:

 

It's many years since I read the book, but I recall both being included, along with the observation that administration takes up an increasing proportion of resources as the organisation grows..

Parkinson's Law?  It is some years since I read the book, but it gave a couple of examples of how numbers of administrators  had grown as the numbers  of people they were administering, had fallen. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typos

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Parkinson's Law?  It is some years since I read the book, but it gave a couple of examples of how numbers of administrators  had grown as the numbers  of people they were administering, had fallen. 

 

Reminds me of the systemic problem with building ever higher skyscrapers.

 

The more floors you add, the more lifts become necessary to cope with the vertical traffic to and from the upper floors. Eventually the whole of the building footprint becomes populated with lifts and there becomes no point in adding more floors, as there are not enough lifts to service them. 

 

[DandV]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Reminds me of the systemic problem with building ever higher skyscrapers.

 

The more floors you add, the more lifts become necessary to cope with the vertical traffic to and from the upper floors. Eventually the whole of the building footprint becomes populated with lifts and there becomes no point in adding more floors, as there are not enough lifts to service them. 

 

And then there is a power cut, and either the emergency generator fails to start, or the duration of fuel supply for the generator is less then the duration of the power cut.

[Mike Todd]

On 13/03/2023 at 09:10, Allan(nb Albert) said:

The Charity Commissions statutory duty would be to remove CRT from the register of charities as per my article. However, I expect they would wish to avoid this by providing advice as you suggest.

 

***** edited to add ***** They might want to see the outcome from a ONS re-clasification.

Plenty of situations where different classifications are not coterminous when used for different purposes. Especially when the definitions are in the hands of non statutory people who have particular aims.

[IanD]

Isn't all this like arguing about whether the flames are red or yellow when the real problem is that your a*se is on fire?

 

Whether CART is a charity or charitable trust or a non-profit limited company isn't the real problem, which is that CART haven't got enough money to maintain the network and the government grant is falling in real terms... 😞

[MtB]

25 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Plenty of situations where different classifications are not coterminous

 

And I nominate Mike Todd for the "Word of the day" award for that one!! 

 

 

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

Isn't all this like arguing about whether the flames are red or yellow when the real problem is that your a*se is on fire?

 

Whether CART is a charity or charitable trust or a non-profit limited company isn't the real problem, which is that CART haven't got enough money to maintain the network and the government grant is falling in real terms... 😞

I agree.  A fair question for Govt to consider is whether CRT is well governed - under whatever legal structure is used.  That's a key bit of due diligence for them, indeed for any funding organisation.  

[David Mack]

Meanwhile, over on the dark side, Victor is fuming with the 'revelation' that CRT is legally a limited company, registered at Companies House, and that by not using the word "limited" in their branding they are misleading the public.

Presumably he has never read to the bottom of any page on the CRT website where it says:

"Canal & River Trust is a charity registered with the Charity Commission no. 1146792 and a company limited by guarantee registered in England & Wales no. 07807276."

[Scholar Gypsy]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Meanwhile, over on the dark side, Victor is fuming with the 'revelation' that CRT is legally a limited company, registered at Companies House, and that by not using the word "limited" in their branding they are misleading the public.

Presumably he has never read to the bottom of any page on the CRT website where it says:

"Canal & River Trust is a charity registered with the Charity Commission no. 1146792 and a company limited by guarantee registered in England & Wales no. 07807276."

I think I would give up most of my Trustee roles if the charities concerned were not limited companies! 

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Meanwhile, over on the dark side, Victor is fuming with the 'revelation' that CRT is legally a limited company, registered at Companies House, and that by not using the word "limited" in their branding they are misleading the public.

Presumably he has never read to the bottom of any page on the CRT website where it says:

"Canal & River Trust is a charity registered with the Charity Commission no. 1146792 and a company limited by guarantee registered in England & Wales no. 07807276."

 

I doubt he ever reads to the end of a CRT web page as I suspect he is normally incandescent with rage by the second word on any CRT web page.

 

[Creaking Gate]

On 13/03/2023 at 11:17, Midnight said:

 

Another poster who doesn't moor in Yorkshire?

Am i to believe that everything in Yorkshire is bad.... I don't think so having cruised most of it.  Not all I'll concede. But i don't believe its as bad as the picture you paint.  And you like to paint a negative picture, nearly every thread you create is about how bad CRT are.  

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I doubt he ever reads to the end of a CRT web page as I suspect he is normally incandescent with rage by the second word on any CRT web page.

 

Anyone care to place a bet as to which right-wing newspaper he reads, if any?

 

(or the online version which is if anything even more extreme...)

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Isn't all this like arguing about whether the flames are red or yellow when the real problem is that your a*se is on fire?

 

Whether CART is a charity or charitable trust or a non-profit limited company isn't the real problem, which is that CART haven't got enough money to maintain the network and the government grant is falling in real terms... 😞

CRT/BW waterways have not had enough money to maintain them for almost 20 years. In real terms grant has been falling for the last seven years. CRT have been turned down for an extra £120m for safety critical work and the waterways minister says that government will taper off grant after 2027.

 

The sad thing for me is that most did not see this as the outcome from BW and Defra turning a navigation authority into a charity.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Midnight]

15 minutes ago, Creaking Gate said:

Am i to believe that everything in Yorkshire is bad.... I don't think so having cruised most of it.  Not all I'll concede. But i don't believe its as bad as the picture you paint.  And you like to paint a negative picture, nearly every thread you create is about how bad CRT are.  

 

You haven't cruised up here recently then. Just check back over the stoppage notices since the beginning of 2021 then tell me it isn't that bad.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 

You haven't cruised up here recently then. Just check back over the stoppage notices since the beginning of 2021 then tell me it isn't that bad.

He can't do that because some of the older ones are deleted when a stoppage ends. 

 

Anyway its not too bad. Only 36 emergency stoppages and 33 winter works stoppages showing at the moment ...

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Only 36 emergency stoppages and 33 winter works stoppages showing at the moment ...

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

18 minutes ago, Creaking Gate said:

Am i to believe that everything in Yorkshire is bad.... I don't think so having cruised most of it.  Not all I'll concede. But i don't believe its as bad as the picture you paint.  And you like to paint a negative picture, nearly every thread you create is about how bad CRT are.  

I found it really tough at times boating around the North over 3or 4 years with the amount of stoppages for one reason or another.

For most of it I could afford the time to wait the stoppages out, with some lovely villages to get ‘stuck’ in.

I tend to have a like and dislike thing going on with CRT and most of the dislike is based on some of my experiences up there. 
Witnessing work being out sourced and money wasted having it done again because it was done wrong. For instance one lock above Slaithwaite was repaired 3 times before they got it right. 
Good job it’s stunning scenery, friendly folk, and some good beer.

I can understand someone with a home mooring up there who likes to get out for a long cruise being really frustrated/angry/pissed off with CRT. 

 

I still prefer PG tips to Yorkshire Tea. (and beer with the sparkler off)

[Midnight]

24 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

He can't do that because some of the older ones are deleted when a stoppage ends. 

 

Anyway its not too bad. Only 36 emergency stoppages and 33 winter works stoppages showing at the moment ...

 

Thanks Allan that's a relief might even be able to escape this year - I always said C&RT are doing a wonderful job.

[Hudds Lad]

22 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Witnessing work being out sourced and money wasted having it done again because it was done wrong. For instance one lock above Slaithwaite was repaired 3 times before they got it right.

There's one, i forget which but 30-something, where they have at least three times to my knowledge restored the towpath with gravel/chippings and every time there's a good deluge the pound above washes it all down the towpath and into the pound below. They just keep re-doing the chippings and there's a lovely gravel bank where the lock landing used to be  

Unsure on the current state as i've not been on the towpath since Covid as it just got too bloody busy with idiots doing their allowed exercise.

[Orwellian]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Meanwhile, over on the dark side, Victor is fuming with the 'revelation' that CRT is legally a limited company, registered at Companies House, and that by not using the word "limited" in their branding they are misleading the public.

Presumably he has never read to the bottom of any page on the CRT website where it says:

"Canal & River Trust is a charity registered with the Charity Commission no. 1146792 and a company limited by guarantee registered in England & Wales no. 07807276."

It really is time he packed it in. He's clearly incapable and sadly can't stop pretending he's a campaigning journalist.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Presumably he has never read to the bottom of any page on the CRT website where it says:

"Canal & River Trust is a charity registered with the Charity Commission no. 1146792 and a company limited by guarantee registered in England & Wales no. 07807276."

 

 

Or even got as far as the front cover of the "Articles of Association"

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Hudds Lad said:

There's one, i forget which but 30-something, where they have at least three times to my knowledge restored the towpath with gravel/chippings and every time there's a good deluge the pound above washes it all down the towpath and into the pound below. They just keep re-doing the chippings and there's a lovely gravel bank where the lock landing used to be  

Unsure on the current state as i've not been on the towpath since Covid as it just got too bloody busy with idiots doing their allowed exercise.

exactly, that was their way when I were there, to simply keep replacing the gravel that washed into the cut below the lock where you need to pull the boat in. Unbelievable. 
 

But, in their favour I must say they were working their way up the locks and putting some lovely cobbles/bricks down instead and it seemed to do the job at the time. 

Mind this is now coming up to 5 years ago when they started at the lock above the Guillotine lock. 
 

(Got to know a couple of the guys when I was drinking in the Silent woman 🤪)

 

[Mike Todd]

4 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I think I would give up most of my Trustee roles if the charities concerned were not limited companies! 

Especially as. in the case of an unlimited organization, each Trustee will have a 'joint and several' liability. This is oft misunderstood (until it is too late) As: Say thyere are 10 trustees and the org owes £100. The creditor seeks a judgement. It is oft assumed that this would mean each Trustee paying one tenth ie £10. However J&S means that any one or more of the Trustees can be required to meet the whole debt, usually selected by the creditor on the basis that they are the most solvent.