C&RT License Survey

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Don’t forget them that fiddle with maggots,

they pay their pound

[Riverdee]

15 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I used to regularly get cyclists to sign up and donate to CRT,

some were/are very generous,

their money needs tapping into

“If you don't ask, you don't get it"

 

Mahatma Ghandhi

15 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I used to regularly get cyclists to sign up and donate to CRT,

 

 

That's really nice of you to do.

How about CRT create a system where for every donation you bring in you earn discounts on your licenses or accumulate points? People can donate through the account with a link or ref to this person.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Riverdee
wrong quote

[magnetman]

Oh yes. Despite paying over a hundred thousand pounds of my own money to the CRT over a period of ten yars I am still not a 'Friend'.

 

 

 

 

 

[Midnight]

27 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Ian possibly,he’s the fountain of all knowledge.

Despite his obssesive and somewhat flawed view of the role of this government, I actually believe he could probably do a better job. You'd have to be really sh*t not to.

Looking at the politics for a moment, does anyone here believe Starmer and Co will provide any more money to what is a failed organisation. Parry accepted the job based on the financial package at the time. He has failed. Normally when managers fail they get sacked, albeit in his case 'leave to spend more time with the family' and a big fat pension.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

16 minutes ago, Riverdee said:

“If you don't ask, you don't get it"

 

Mahatma Ghandhi

 

That's really nice of you to do.

How about CRT create a system where for every donation you bring in you earn discounts on your licenses or accumulate points? People can donate through the account with a link or ref to this person.

 

it was a paid job,

there are still plenty of chuggers out there,

but it’s something that’s poorly ran and don’t bring in a fraction of what it could,

another example of CRT poor management 

[magnetman]

I don't buy into the management failure argument. Its too simplistic.

 

Obviously people who tend to end up running this sort of thing are only in it for their own financial gain. That is surely a given and very unlikely to change. The type of person who gets this job is going to be generic. It is virtually impossible for anyone else to get the job because of the way job selection processes work.

 

Someone who knows everything about the canals down to the finest details and understands the customers and vested interests would never get the job of running the organisation unless their CV showed that they had previously run something else even if it was completely unrelated and of no relevance.

 

It won't happen. So all that will happen is what does happen. It can't change.

 

 

As for .gov selections in future it seems unlikely to make any difference.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

it was a paid job,

there are still plenty of chuggers out there,

but it’s something that’s poorly ran and don’t bring in a fraction of what it could,

another example of CRT poor management 

 

I was under the impression that they had stopped chuggers after 2 years of paying chuggers more than they collected.

 

What ijut would agree to an hourly rate irrespective of cash generated ?

Any right minded manager  would base the pay on a percentage of monies collected.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Any right minded manager  would base the pay on a percentage of monies collected.

It is

[peterboat]

52 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I don't buy into the management failure argument. Its too simplistic.

 

Obviously people who tend to end up running this sort of thing are only in it for their own financial gain. That is surely a given and very unlikely to change. The type of person who gets this job is going to be generic. It is virtually impossible for anyone else to get the job because of the way job selection processes work.

 

Someone who knows everything about the canals down to the finest details and understands the customers and vested interests would never get the job of running the organisation unless their CV showed that they had previously run something else even if it was completely unrelated and of no relevance.

 

It won't happen. So all that will happen is what does happen. It can't change.

 

 

As for .gov selections in future it seems unlikely to make any difference.

 

 

They didn't select did they? The failure that was BW got the job, the only change was more management on bigger wages and less workforce! Another management failure 🤒

Edited December 21, 2023 by peterboat

[Bristolfashion]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

Well it makes sense if the aim is to retain canals in working order. 

 

Obviously the answer is regional tolls based on demand. 

 

It would be quite funny to watch all the people who thought they wanted to live on a Boat in London suddenly shifting to Hemel Hempstead which then gets a demand spike. 

 

I sometimes wonder if sailing around the world in a sloop may in fact be the answer. 

 

When I finally get my enormous pecuniary legacy from the contested Will I am going to look into it..

 

 

 

 

If you think canal boating is expensive, wait till you try a yacht!

3 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

they could apply for a loyalty card and the more miles they walk the more points they get,

and these points could be spent at Morrison’s, on groceries, booze or petrol 👍

Like most of these things, a "single ticket" might be a quid, but an annual pass on direct debit might only be £25.

[magnetman]

Oh yes the superyacht we have in St Tropez is indeed quite expensive to run. I suppose it would be better if one were to charter it but who would want all those other people on it ?
 

[Bristolfashion]

1 hour ago, Riverdee said:

Maybe thats a good thing? Then perhaps the cyclists will start contributing?!

Didn't there used to be a permit of some sort for cycling on the towpath? I've got some dim memory of it. Personally (as a keen cyclist) I'm in favour of the idea - perhaps the cycling organisations / insurers could negotiate a bulk discount and then include it in their membership/policy? I also pay a monthly donation to CRT, perhaps that could include the cycle permit (if at least a certain number of quids).

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

More likely they will take control of the land over time and put the canal at risk by demanding more space for their highways.

 

I doubt a cyclist will ever in the history of the world give a penny to the CRT unless they are also a Boat owner.

 

Ahem, I'm a cyclist - I'd very happily pay for a permit AND I already make a monthly donation.

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Oh yes the superyacht we have in St Tropez is indeed quite expensive to run. I suppose it would be better if one were to charter it but who would want all those other people on it ?
 

It's alright for some!

 

We've got a modest 28 ½', 40 year old yacht in UK waters - salt water bears the hell out of equipment, you need much more gear & safety equipment and the consequences of equipment/maintenance failure are, generally, rather more serious!

[magnetman]

Indeed. Feet? That seems a little on the small side we usually measure our Boats in yards.

 

The French based yacht is 39 yards at the waterline. I agree the salt water is a terrible nuisance but needs must if one wants to recuprate in the med rather than at the country estate.

 

I feel it is wise to have a number of different options in this regard.

 

Steel Boats are generally alright if maintained well.

[Mad Harold]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

There are only two ways CRT can get money from boaters, licences to move about and fees for staying put. Expanding their towpath mooring empire would earn them a fortune. Insisting everyone except liveaboard constant cruisers had a mooring, then selling them one at a sensible rate would do the job.

Before I had my marina mooring, I enquired about towpath moorings close to me.

There were two close by, Salterhebble and the Halifax Arm.Both were more expensive than my marina mooring and on viewing where they were, I would not have left my boat at either location unattended for fear of vandalism as there was no security at all. When I viewed these two moorings, there were no other boats moored there.

[magnetman]

If the CRT charged for all towpath moorings one side effect would be that the price of marina moorings would go up. This would cause people to utilise existing towpath long term moorings thus making them less zombietown like.

 

Meanwhile everyone else cruising about can enjoy the fact their towpath mooring costs them less than if they had to stay in one place.

 

£5 a day would do it.

 

Whether the CRT can get suitable bank managers for this is another question perhaps for another day.

 

[Mad Harold]

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If the CRT charged for all towpath moorings one side effect would be that the price of marina moorings would go up. This would cause people to utilise existing towpath long term moorings thus making them less zombietown like.

 

Meanwhile everyone else cruising about can enjoy the fact their towpath mooring costs them less than if they had to stay in one place.

 

£5 a day would do it.

 

Whether the CRT can get suitable bank managers for this is another question perhaps for another day.

 

The problem with towpath moorings is security.In a marina you get varying degrees of security which I suppose is better than none at all,as well as varying services.

There used to be towpath moorings on the C+H near Wakefield before CRT closed them for fear of flooding.They were well populated but there were numerous break ins and outboard thefts.I personally would not be happy leaving a boat unattended on one of these on line moorings.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

6 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Go on, provide the numbers to show this then... 😉

 

Blue signs and logo changes and parties and van wrapping and executive bonuses and whatever else you can conjure up probably add up to considerably less than 1% of CART expenditure -- and yes that's my estimate, but it's based on some realistic guesstimates of how much these might all actually cost not just "Huge, innit!!!".

 

Yes there's been a shortfall in canal funding and maintenance for a very long time, but both have got steadily worse since CART was set up in 2012, and the Tories have been in power since 2010 -- so they were responsible for the terms under which this happened, which were a triumph in wishful thinking on all sides, both government and CART management at the time... 😞

Deleted

Edited December 21, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)
Posted in Error

[MtB]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

If the CRT charged for all towpath moorings one side effect would be that the price of marina moorings would go up. This would cause people to utilise existing towpath long term moorings thus making them less zombietown like.

 

Meanwhile everyone else cruising about can enjoy the fact their towpath mooring costs them less than if they had to stay in one place.

 

£5 a day would do it.

 

Whether the CRT can get suitable bank managers for this is another question perhaps for another day.

 

 

The usual objection to this sensible proposal is thr difficulty in collecting £5 from every boat moored on the towpath, every night.

 

The answer is to charge every licence-holder £5 x 365 on top of the licence fee, less the value of any mooring invoice they can submit from an approved marina or indeed a CRT invoice for an online mooring.

 

Then it turns into a simple(ish) administration (IT) exercise.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by MtB
Add a bit.

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What ijut would agree to an hourly rate irrespective of cash generated ?

Any right minded manager  would base the pay on a percentage of monies collected.

 Anyone following current employment law?

 

Or doesn't that matter to you?

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Oh yes the superyacht we have in St Tropez is indeed quite expensive to run. I suppose it would be better if one were to charter it but who would want all those other people on it ?
 

If it flies, floats or fornicates, always rent it. It's cheaper in the long run.

Felix Dennis

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

A heavily redacted response to a Freedom of Information request published yesterday suggests that boaters have not given CRT a mandate to surcharge.

 

Quote

2.4 
The options in the pair-wise choice can be simplified as: 
Option A – Status quo, all licence fees to rise together at the same rate 
Option B – Higher increase for CC licences than for those with a home mooring 
Option C – Move to Area Based Charging (Boat length x Boat width) 
Option D –  Retain current length-based charges and increase surcharges for wide beam craft from the 
current (‘medium’ width +10%:  full wide-beam +20%) 
2.5 
The Consultation yielded the respondents’ preferences for each option compared to the status quo (A) 
as follows: 
Percentage of all boaters choosing option B over option A  - 40% 
Percentage of all boaters choosing option C over option A  - 20% 
Percentage of all boaters choosing option D over option A  - 24% 

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Bristolfashion said:

Didn't there used to be a permit of some sort for cycling on the towpath? I've got some dim memory of it. Personally (as a keen cyclist) I'm in favour of the idea - perhaps the cycling organisations / insurers could negotiate a bulk discount and then include it in their membership/policy? I also pay a monthly donation to CRT, perhaps that could include the cycle permit (if at least a certain number of quids).

Ahem, I'm a cyclist - I'd very happily pay for a permit AND I already make a monthly donation.

 

Yes, I used to have one back in the early 1980s. Can't remember the cost, it was something dirt cheap like £1 a year. I suspect hardly anyone cycling on the towpath bothered, IIRC they were quite surprised when I turned up to the BW office (at Little Venice?) to buy one. Of course there was no enforcement or checking, in a couple of years of cycling from Wembley into South Ken (about 20 miles a day on the towpath) I wasn't ever asked to present it -- which is the problem with any scheme like this, without enforcement/checking (which needs a lot of people and would probably cost more money than it would collect -- and what happens if someone hasn't got one or refuses to say, CART can't arrest them) it's useless... 😞

 

To collect a fee or license you really need a scheme which difficult to evade and cheap and easy to run, which usually means it's linked to something big and difficult to hide like a boat or a house. Which is why council tax and CRT license fees work, but most of the ideas for collecting money from cyclists or walkers or fishermen are pretty much impractical, however much (comparitively) easy-to-catch boaters would like to see them pay instead... 😉

1 minute ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

A heavily redacted response to a Freedom of Information request published yesterday suggests that boaters have not given CRT a mandate to surcharge.
 

 

At the risk of repeating what was already said, CRT said that they were trying to find the least unpopular way to increase license fees, the CC surcharge came first in this particular race and a flat percentage increase on all boaters came last, with a bigger surcharge for wideboats in between.

 

So however you view it, the mandate to CRT to surcharge was stronger than the mandate to up all fees equally -- even though nothing had an overall majority, for the simple reason that people generally don't want to pay more.

 

What do *you* think CRT should have done -- not put the fees up at all (not an option, because CRT need more money), or put them all up equally (the least popular option)?

[Stroudwater1]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Yes, I used to have one back in the early 1980s. Can't remember the cost, it was something dirt cheap like £1 a year. I suspect hardly anyone cycling on the towpath bothered, IIRC they were quite surprised when I turned up to the BW office (at Little Venice?) to buy one. Of course there was no enforcement or checking, in a couple of years of cycling from Wembley into South Ken (about 20 miles a day on the towpath) I wasn't ever asked to present it -- which is the problem with any scheme like this, without enforcement/checking (which needs a lot of people and would probably cost more money than it would collect -- and what happens if someone hasn't got one or refuses to say, CART can't arrest them) it's useless... 😞

 

To collect a fee or license you really need a scheme which difficult to evade and cheap and easy to run, which usually means it's linked to something big and difficult to hide like a boat or a house. Which is why council tax and CRT license fees work, but most of the ideas for collecting money from cyclists or walkers or fishermen are pretty much impractical, however much (comparitively) easy-to-catch boaters would like to see them pay instead... 😉

 

Oh I dont know, there could be locked access points along the towpath especially  in London releasable in the same way as tube turnstiles work  on production of a fee,- card cash or mobile etc. They could be accessible to pedestrians,  with a smaller transit point at a cheaper price. Would ideally be covered under a bridge  and closely monitored with CCTV. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 Anyone following current employment law?

 

Or doesn't that matter to you?

 

 

 

So they canot be self employed and paid on a piece rate, eg : paid 50p for every 100p generated ?

A typical example commonly used for self employed 'home workers' is envelope stuffing

 

Extract from 'CASUAL WORKER RIGHTS'

 

................employers can use existing legislation on ‘piece work’ as a framework. In a nutshell, piecework is any type of employment whereby the worker is paid a fixed rate for work undertaken.

 

 

If you are self employed you don’t have the right to:-

• Sick pay (SSP).
• National Minimum Wage.
• Redundancy Pay.
• Protection against unfair dismissal.
• Paid Holidays.
• Rest breaks and limits on night working hours.
• Protection against unfair deductions from pay.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

The problem with towpath moorings is security.In a marina you get varying degrees of security which I suppose is better than none at all,as well as varying services.

There used to be towpath moorings on the C+H near Wakefield before CRT closed them for fear of flooding.They were well populated but there were numerous break ins and outboard thefts.I personally would not be happy leaving a boat unattended on one of these on line moorings.

There are plenty of these about. Nantwich, Stone, Bosley all have a considerable number without any obvious vandalism. Must admit it surprises me too and I wouldn't want one unless there were a fair few people living on them. But there must be plenty of areas where CRT own both sides of the canal.

And, as there are already a raft of boaters dumping their boats on the towpath (both liveaboards and well, just dumped) without any great incidence of vandalism, I'm not sure it's that much of an issue.

[TheBiscuits]

48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Extract from 'CASUAL WORKER RIGHTS'

 

Can you provide a current link to a HMRC page for that?  It was the case some years ago, but isn't currently as far as I'm aware.

 

There was a massive clampdown on fake "self employment" schemes a few years ago.

 

It caused no end of panic at many firms!