Hybrid drive conversion question

[Bargebuilder]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

It could be the case, but I'd need to see actual evidence to be convinced -- I think it's more likely that they produce more particulates of all sizes (but don't have any evidence of this).

I tend to agree: it's hard to imagine that years of work to improve efficiency, completeness of combustion and reduction of emissions, has resulted in diesel engines with exhaust that's more harmful to human health, not less.

 

If traditional engines have to be evaluated for emissions before they are allowed to be installed in new build boats, it's reasonable to assume that someone out there has some results of such tests; they would be interesting.

[David Mack]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

If traditional engines have to be evaluated for emissions before they are allowed to be installed in new build boats, it's reasonable to assume that someone out there has some results of such tests; they would be interesting.

No it's not. Doing the full suite of tests required is very expensive. Fine for manufacturers introducing a new model that will be produced by the thousand, but completely unaffordable for a small boatbuilder installing a single example of an old engine, or indeed a manufacturer of engines produced in very small numbers.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

No it's not. Doing the full suite of tests required is very expensive. Fine for manufacturers introducing a new model that will be produced by the thousand, but completely unaffordable for a small boatbuilder installing a single example of an old engine, or indeed a manufacturer of engines produced in very small numbers.

 

It is the manufacturer who has to submit the engine for independent testing, then the manufacturer has to certify that the engine is compliant.

 

As you if it costs (say) £5000 for the testing, amortise that over 1000 engines and it is 'nothing', do it for one-engine and its gets a bit prohibitive.

 

Of course, that is not the end of it, the engines also have to meet 'noise emission' requirements, so another course of testing .......

 

Extract :

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Bargebuilder]

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

No it's not. Doing the full suite of tests required is very expensive. Fine for manufacturers introducing a new model that will be produced by the thousand, but completely unaffordable for a small boatbuilder installing a single example of an old engine, or indeed a manufacturer of engines produced in very small numbers.

Forgive me, are you saying that traditional engines can be installed in new builds with no need for emissions tests, or that they are, but nobody bothers? I don't think you can be saying that people no longer opt for traditional engines in their new boats.

[Paul C]

To summarise, is it the case that "we don't know" if an old/vintage diesel engine's emissions are more harmful, simply because one has never been tested to the same standard as a modern narrowboat diesel engine. Thus, the data is "not available" and some have misinterpreted this as 0s, thus assuming/concluding that they are less harmful?

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Forgive me, are you saying that traditional engines can be installed in new builds with no need for emissions tests,

 

"Vintage" engines (or any engine not certified as compliant) CANNOT be installed in any new boat, and it have been banned for many years.

 

A non-compliant Vintage engine can be installed in a replica of an 'old boat' (pre 1950) but the replica must be built to the design and using the same material as the original. You cannot build a 'replica' of a wooden NB in steel and fit an old engine.

 

 

Extract :

 

Subsection 2. This order shall not apply to the following products:

1) With regard to the design and construction requirements set out in Part A of Annex I:

a) watercraft intended solely for racing, including rowing racing boats and training rowing boats, labelled as such by the manufacturer;

b) canoes and kayaks designed to be propelled solely by human power, gondolas and pedalos;

c) surfboards designed solely to be propelled by wind and to be operated by a person or persons standing;

d) surfboards;

e) original historical watercraft and individual replicas thereof designed before 1950, built pre-dominantly with the original materials and labelled as such by the manufacturer

Edited July 12, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

9 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Forgive me, are you saying that traditional engines can be installed in new builds with no need for emissions tests, or that they are, but nobody bothers? I don't think you can be saying that people no longer opt for traditional engines in their new boats.

New build boats are supposed to comply with the RCD/RCR, including engine emissions and noise levels. And that means using engines which have been tested to demonstrate compliance and have all the relevant documentation.

There are exceptions for individual craft built as replicas of older boats. Just how accurate a replica has to be to qualify as such is a distinctly grey area!

And with such boats being built in ones and twos, rather than on a volume production line, the authorities probably turn a blind eye to minor transgressions.

Edited July 12, 2022 by David Mack

[Paul C]

9 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Forgive me, are you saying that traditional engines can be installed in new builds with no need for emissions tests, or that they are, but nobody bothers? I don't think you can be saying that people no longer opt for traditional engines in their new boats.

 

See 

 

Its been a hard "no" since 18th Jan 2017 (unless its a historic replica boat). I don't think you can even use the "5 year rule" any more either, you can't just build a boat ignoring the RCD then use it any more, (even if you don't sell it).

 

[Bargebuilder]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

New build boats are supposed to comply with the RCD/RCR, including engine emissions and noise levels. And that means using engines which have been tested to demonstrate compliance and have all the relevant documentation.

There are exceptions for individual craft built as replicas of older boats. Just how accurate a replica has to be to qualify as such is a distinctly grey area!

That would make sense. Do think then that nobody has ever tested traditional diesel engines for particulates and other emissions, so making a comparison between them and more modern diesels is impossible due to a lack of legitimate information?

[Bargebuilder]

10 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Its been a hard "no" since 18th Jan 2017 (unless its a historic replica boat). I don't think you can even use the "5 year rule" any more either, you can't just build a boat ignoring the RCD then use it any more, (even if you don't sell it).

I wonder who needs to be convinced that a new boat is a historic replica and what they insist on for it to comply?

 

Can one re-engine a used narrowboat with a traditional engine and if so, how is a used boat defined?

[Paul C]

14 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

That would make sense. Do think then that nobody has ever tested traditional diesel engines for particulates and other emissions, so making a comparison between them and more modern diesels is impossible due to a lack of legitimate information?

 

The fact is, if you put a replacement engine into a narrowboat nowadays it needs a re-assessment and if the engine is untested, it will need emissions testing (at ~£5k or whatever it costs), if its an old one don't expect good results from the test....

8 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I wonder who needs to be convinced that a new boat is a historic replica and what they insist on for it to comply?

 

I think for class D waters (ie inland waterways) the onus is still on the builder themselves to self-declare the RCD status including if the boat enjoys any exemptions.

 

8 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Can one re-engine a used narrowboat with a traditional engine and if so, how is a used boat defined?

 

A re-engine needs an assessment nowadays.

[Bargebuilder]

8 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

The fact is, if you put a replacement engine into a narrowboat nowadays it needs a re-assessment and if the engine is untested, it will need emissions testing. if its an old one don't expect good result.

 

A re-engine needs an assessment nowadays.

That's tough for those businesses who specialise in re-conditioning traditional engines.

 

Clearly, whoever formulates the rules,  consider that standing behind the flue stack of a traditional engine is not a wise thing to do.

[Alan de Enfield]

40 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

The fact is, if you put a replacement engine into a narrowboat nowadays it needs a re-assessment and if the engine is untested, it will need emissions testing (at ~£5k or whatever it costs), if its an old one don't expect good results from the test....

 

I think for class D waters (ie inland waterways) the onus is still on the builder themselves to self-declare the RCD status including if the boat enjoys any exemptions.

 

 

A re-engine needs an assessment nowadays.

 

A PCA (Post Contruction Assesment) costs around £2000 + any rectification costs if it fails certification.

Any 'replacement' engine not only has to meet the emission and noise requirements, it must also be within +/- 10% of the original engine HP

[Bargebuilder]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A PCA (Post Contruction Assesment) costs around £2000 + any rectification costs if it fails certification.

Any 'replacement' engine not only has to meet the emission and noise requirements, it must also be within +/- 10% of the original engine HP

If that is the cost too for an engine in a new build, as a proportion of the total  cost, I suppose £2000 is insignificant. I wonder though, if a traditional engine would stand any chance of passing the test for either emissions or noise.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

If that is the cost too for an engine in a new build, as a proportion of the total  cost, I suppose £2000 is insignificant. I wonder though, if a traditional engine would stand any chance of passing the test for either emissions or noise.

 

No, that is the cost of the POST CONSTRUCTION ASSESMENT by a surveyor checking for RCR compliance.

Eg : An existing (secondhand) boat that is having a new bigger / smaller engine fitted, or has been fitted with a new gas system, or has a different method of propulsion fitted etc etc.

 

A forum member posted a couple of months ago that they went to a broker to sell their NB, and the broker refused to put it on the books as there was no evidence of RCR / RCD compliance so the seller had to have a PCA undertaken before it could be sold.

 

In mainland Europe the RCD is very strictly enforced - no RCD compliance certificate & the boat cannot be sold. The boat I bought in Croatia (at huge discounted price because of no paperwork) was an example. I had to get either a PCA or copy documentation from the manufacturer - fortunately I had already discussed with the manufacturer and they supplied me with copies of the certificates of compliance. All I then needed to get was a retrospectively issued VAT paid certificate.

[Bargebuilder]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No, that is the cost of the POST CONSTRUCTION ASSESMENT by a surveyor checking for RCR compliance.

Eg : An existing (secondhand) boat that is having a new bigger / smaller engine fitted, or has been fitted with a new gas system, or has a different method of propulsion fitted etc etc.

 

A forum member posted a couple of months ago that they went to a broker to sell their NB, and the broker refused to put it on the books as there was no evidence of RCR / RCD compliance so the seller had to have a PCA undertaken before it could be sold.

 

In mainland Europe the RCD is very strictly enforced - no RCD compliance certificate & the boat cannot be sold. The boat I bought in Croatia (at huge discounted price because of no paperwork) was an example. I had to get either a PCA or copy documentation from the manufacturer - fortunately I had already discussed with the manufacturer and they supplied me with copies of the certificates of compliance. All I then needed to get was a retrospectively issued VAT paid certificate.

Well done you: I'm guessing you got a good deal.

 

There must be lots of boats in the UK without evidence of an RCD certificate. Do you think we'll go the same way as Europe, strictly enforcing the RCD requirement rules? Is there an age limit?

 

Perhaps our enforcement of the re-engine regulations is as lax as our RCD enforcement and people just do as they wish without declaring it.

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Well done you: I'm guessing you got a good deal.

 

There must be lots of boats in the UK without evidence of an RCD certificate. Do you think we'll go the same way as Europe, strictly enforcing the RCD requirement rules? Is there an age limit?

 

Perhaps our enforcement of the re-engine regulations is as lax as our RCD enforcement and people just do as they wish without declaring it.

 

There seems to be a 'tightening up' but the inland waterways have traditionally been 'paperwork rebels' so who knows where its going :

 

Limks to previous threads : Click on each of the thread titles

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There was a 'self-built 2 year old boat for sale on Ebay with no RCD, the seller was contacted and told to withdraw it as it was illegal to sell it.

A long thread  ......................

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Bargebuilder]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There seems to be a 'tightening up' but the inland waterways have traditionally been 'paperwork rebels' so who knows where its going :

 

Limks to previous threads : Click on each of the thread titles

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There was a 'self-built 2 year old boat for sale on Ebay with no RCD, the seller was contacted and told to withdraw it as it was illegal to sell it.

A long thread  ......................

 

 

 

 

Thank goodness we are not in Europe then...  

 

Thanks for the links; very interesting.

[Tony Brooks]

10 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

There must be lots of boats in the UK without evidence of an RCD certificate. Do you think we'll go the same way as Europe, strictly enforcing the RCD requirement rules? Is there an age limit?

 

I think that you can still do as you please on a pre RCD built boat so about 1997, so the old boats may eventually attract a premium price from ardent DIYers. 

 

I also suspect there will be many more private sales of boats without the relevant paperwork, possibly at a discount.

 

[IanD]

Anyway, to get back to the OPs question it would be almost certainly be possible to add a parallel hybrid setup onto an existing trad engine, one like the Hybridmarine one just couples onto the prop shaft via belt drive.

 

I'm pretty sure one of the motor kit suppliers could do this at a cost not much more than buying the components, for example:

 

https://www.voltsport.co.uk/Marine-Propulsion-Systems/Small-Yacht-Drive-Kit

 

From memory when I was talking to them early last year, the drive system (not this one) cost a few thousand pounds, I'm sure they could provide a quote for an add-on system. On top of that you'd need batteries and battery management (another few grand at least), but also a way of getting a decent amount of charge into the batteries. Assuming no onboard generator, this would need some *big* alternators (maybe polyvee drive?) and a suitable external controller (Wakespeed?) to be added to the engine, that's another few grand.

 

Depending on battery size and type (LFP strongly advised to keep engine run times for charging down) I suspect even doing the actual installation yourself you'd be looking at an absolute minimum of £10000 total, and that's with a pretty small battery. If the engineering to add on the alternators and the belt drive is done professionally this would add to the cost, as would a more sensible sized battery.

[Bargebuilder]

57 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that you can still do as you please on a pre RCD built boat so about 1997, so the old boats may eventually attract a premium price from ardent DIYers. 

 

I also suspect there will be many more private sales of boats without the relevant paperwork, possibly at a discount.

 

If that's correct, many people will struggle to even prove the boat's age.

 

I've only ever sold using a well known website: brokers don't always deserve the percentage they demand. I've never been asked for evidence of an RCD, even on quite recent boats.

[mrsmelly]

On 10/07/2022 at 12:05, Tracy D'arth said:

It all depends on how they are going to define zero emission propulsion. Obviously charging a battery with a diesel and using the battery to move the boat is only zero emission whilst the battery is the sole power source, the wording is an ass.

Why would you use a socking great Gardner just to charge batteries?

Its irrelevant anyway. The dates have been set recently by a government who all know they will be long gone by then. Reality will kick in well b4 then and as if by magic the dates will change lol.

[ditchcrawler]

14 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Well done you: I'm guessing you got a good deal. 

Surly it was an illegal deal for it to be sold without the correct paperwork?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Surly it was an illegal deal for it to be sold without the correct paperwork?

 

It would have been, but, I got the verbal "its a deal" and then sorted out the paperwork and had to get a solicitor to witness the documentation so it could be de-registered by the Minister for Maritime Affairs and de-registered from the Croation registry list.

All the relevant pages had to be signed, witnessed bound (with a bit of string) and fixed with a seal and officially stamped.

 

(I never did remove its KR registration number).

 

 

[peterboat]

20 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

The fact is, if you put a replacement engine into a narrowboat nowadays it needs a re-assessment and if the engine is untested, it will need emissions testing (at ~£5k or whatever it costs), if its an old one don't expect good results from the test....

 

I think for class D waters (ie inland waterways) the onus is still on the builder themselves to self-declare the RCD status including if the boat enjoys any exemptions.

 

 

A re-engine needs an assessment nowadays.

Not true, if you are fitting a cleaner engine it doesn't need reassessment, I fitted my electric motor without issues after talking to the relevant authorities.