Hybrid drive conversion question

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Its irrelevant anyway. The dates have been set recently by a government who all know they will be long gone by then. Reality will kick in well b4 then and as if by magic the dates will change lol.

Tim you keep on saying this but the reality is electric will take over, it's happening with cars and boats will follow suit. I am still not seeing huge numbers of boats moving around, I am seeing them sitting for a few days or more between moves. 

We have moved every day for between 2-5 hours on solar, I have used the genny to get hot water so have done this in conjunction with washing machine/dishwasher use. The genny always charges both sets of batteries. At the moment finding shade for us after cruising is our main concern along with the solar still charging the batteries. 

I had all sorts of work planned but heat stopped play.

[Paul C]

33 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Not true, if you are fitting a cleaner engine it doesn't need reassessment, I fitted my electric motor without issues after talking to the relevant authorities. 

 

Apologies, I thought the "Post Construction Assessment" was needed when major mods were done on a boat, such as re-engining it. If that's not the case, or its only the case when the engine isn't 'cleaner', then fair enough. Or did you just not get yours reassessed? Or did yours come before the rule change?

33 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Not true, if you are fitting a cleaner engine it doesn't need reassessment, I fitted my electric motor without issues after talking to the relevant authorities. 

 

Apologies, I thought the "Post Construction Assessment" was needed when major mods were done on a boat, such as re-engining it. If that's not the case, or its only the case when the engine isn't 'cleaner', then fair enough. Or did you just not get yours reassessed? Or did yours come before the rule change?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Apologies, I thought the "Post Construction Assessment" was needed when major mods were done on a boat, such as re-engining it. If that's not the case, or its only the case when the engine isn't 'cleaner', then fair enough. Or did you just not get yours reassessed? Or did yours come before the rule change?

 

Apologies, I thought the "Post Construction Assessment" was needed when major mods were done on a boat, such as re-engining it. If that's not the case, or its only the case when the engine isn't 'cleaner', then fair enough. Or did you just not get yours reassessed? Or did yours come before the rule change?

 

The actual RCD statement is :

 

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this order

 

Maybe Peters 'official' was just putting his interpretation into it and reading the second sentence only.

 

It clearly states THAT ANY CHANGE in the means of propulsion is a craft conversion and would therefore require a PCA

[Tracy D'arth]

What is the difference between "means" and "method" of propulsion?  As I read that statement it implies the method, i.e. fuel used for propulsion.

If its still diesel engine via a prop I can see no change involved.  There is no mention of power used, up or down.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Tracy D'arth

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If its still diesel engine via a prop I can see no change involved

 

But Peters was a change from diesel to leccy, so falls under the 1st part of the clause.

It does not fall under the 2nd part as it does not fail to meet the emission standards.

 

The HP variance are detailed elsewhere - this discussion is about the requirements for a PCA after changing the 'means' of propulsion

[Paul C]

It doesn't matter, because I think an engine change (even a like-to-like, ie a diesel inboard to diesel inboard, of a different make/model engine) would count as "Involves a major engine modification". I dare say, an engine replacement of the same model for example Beta 43 to Beta 43, might just scrape below "major".

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But Peters was a change from diesel to leccy, so falls under the 1st part of the clause.

It does not fall under the 2nd part as it does not fail to meet the emission standards.

 

The HP variance are detailed elsewhere - this discussion is about the requirements for a PCA after changing the 'means' of propulsion

Maybe common sense intervened -- an electric motor emits no pollution, and a generator needs no requalification since any needed will have been done by the manufacturer...

[Paul C]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

Maybe common sense intervened -- an electric motor emits no pollution, and a generator needs no requalification since any needed will have been done by the manufacturer...

 

I think you're right - I can't see loads of PCAs being done for narrowboat re-engines. And I imagine, in 5-10 years time, the popularity of replacing a worn out diesel engine with a hybrid (or full electric) will rise. So the requirement to re-assess the emissions compliance is a bit of a needless exercise. At the moment, without the charging infrastructure, its capital cost exceeds any fuel savings benefit (at least for me). 

 

However we were also discussing using the "workaround" of building or completing a boat with a modern (emissions compliant) engine, then soon after, replacing it with a vintage engine. (Instead of building it with a vintage engine from the outset, which is now not possible). And.........completely ignoring the PCA. I think this is exactly what the PCA and the removal of the exemption on secondhand engines is all about, and I imagine some kind of mechanism may be put in place to close up the loophole, eg BSS being unpassable or invalidated, thus the boat not being able to be licensed etc. I think that would need an alteration to the BSS regs though - another can of worms!!

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

However we were also discussing using the "workaround" of building or completing a boat with a modern (emissions compliant) engine, then soon after, replacing it with a vintage engine. (Instead of building it with a vintage engine from the outset, which is now not possible). And.........completely ignoring the PCA. I think this is exactly what the PCA and the removal of the exemption on secondhand engines is all about, and I imagine some kind of mechanism may be put in place to close up the loophole, eg BSS being unpassable or invalidated, thus the boat not being able to be licensed etc. I think that would need an alteration to the BSS regs though - another can of worms!!

 

 

I think an awful lot of boats would suddenly turn out to have been built in 1997 or earlier, and have strange grinding marks where the HIN would have been, had they had one. 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I think you're right - I can't see loads of PCAs being done for narrowboat re-engines. And I imagine, in 5-10 years time, the popularity of replacing a worn out diesel engine with a hybrid (or full electric) will rise. So the requirement to re-assess the emissions compliance is a bit of a needless exercise. At the moment, without the charging infrastructure, its capital cost exceeds any fuel savings benefit (at least for me). 

 

However we were also discussing using the "workaround" of building or completing a boat with a modern (emissions compliant) engine, then soon after, replacing it with a vintage engine. (Instead of building it with a vintage engine from the outset, which is now not possible). And.........completely ignoring the PCA. I think this is exactly what the PCA and the removal of the exemption on secondhand engines is all about, and I imagine some kind of mechanism may be put in place to close up the loophole, eg BSS being unpassable or invalidated, thus the boat not being able to be licensed etc. I think that would need an alteration to the BSS regs though - another can of worms!!

 

And that's the biggest snag with hybrids at the moment, needing an onboard generator puts the cost up a lot, so replacing a diesel with another diesel is much cheaper than going hybrid -- unless you get cheap secondhand gear and do all the design and installation yourself like Peter did, which is beyond the capabilities of most people, especially with lithium batteries which can easily be destroyed if you don't treat them right.

 

Until there's charging infrastructure (and LFP battery costs have dropped considerably) nobody should be under the illusion that going electric/hybrid will save them money, even given the big reduction in running costs...

[Paul C]

I am actually looking forwards to the charging infrastructure being in place. I think the shift to electric is more/less inevitable, so SOMETHING will have to be done, by SOMEONE. And if you look at the "track miles" of the canal network vs the roads, its clear that there's many times less, so its a solvable problem rather than the massive headache for road electric. The other factor is, on a typical cruise, the place to stop is somewhat flexible, compare with say a car where you kinda want to stop (and have the charging point) at your house or work.

 

For our use, a typical cruise will be to/from the same marina, and we are quite lazy so will only choose the "visitor mooring" spots, because we're too lazy to get a hammer out and bang in pins. The installation of bollards at popular visitor moorings won't be massively awkward and there isn't that many to do.

 

Granted, it won't suit everyone, especially the CCers who seek out towpath moorings which AREN'T in the usual hotspots, probably so they can avoid boating for 14 days. But then if battery technology improves too, instead of nightly charging I imagine it will be every other night; or possibly even a week's worth of cruising then return to the marina? Who knows what the future holds....

[peterboat]

35 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I am actually looking forwards to the charging infrastructure being in place. I think the shift to electric is more/less inevitable, so SOMETHING will have to be done, by SOMEONE. And if you look at the "track miles" of the canal network vs the roads, its clear that there's many times less, so its a solvable problem rather than the massive headache for road electric. The other factor is, on a typical cruise, the place to stop is somewhat flexible, compare with say a car where you kinda want to stop (and have the charging point) at your house or work.

 

For our use, a typical cruise will be to/from the same marina, and we are quite lazy so will only choose the "visitor mooring" spots, because we're too lazy to get a hammer out and bang in pins. The installation of bollards at popular visitor moorings won't be massively awkward and there isn't that many to do.

 

Granted, it won't suit everyone, especially the CCers who seek out towpath moorings which AREN'T in the usual hotspots, probably so they can avoid boating for 14 days. But then if battery technology improves too, instead of nightly charging I imagine it will be every other night; or possibly even a week's worth of cruising then return to the marina? Who knows what the future holds....

Solar in the summer would help, mine has put in 10kwhs today on drive batteries no idea about leisure just look at the voltage rather than meter it.

[Paul C]

AIUI Solar is not the complete answer, because (I think someone did a calculation or a practical experiment) the amount of available roof space on a narrowboat isn't enough, to fit the solar panels, to provide the electricity at a rate, to be able to satisfy the (electric) motor.

 

So yes, it helps, and saves buying electricity, but unless you did little/no cruising, solar alone won't be enough so we're back to needing to plug in the boat at the end of the day. 

 

I know you wrote (can't remember if on another thread) that you DID have enough off of solar, but its exceptionally good in summer at the moment and I think you did 5 hours? Does your boat have gas or is it electric cooking too?

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The actual RCD statement is :

 

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this order

 

Maybe Peters 'official' was just putting his interpretation into it and reading the second sentence only.

 

It clearly states THAT ANY CHANGE in the means of propulsion is a craft conversion and would therefore require a PCA

I spoke to the chap in charge of the BSS scheme he was adamant that it was ok, he made enquiries with the RCD people and they were happy as well. No BSS  was needed until it was next due. 

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, Paul C said:

AIUI Solar is not the complete answer, because (I think someone did a calculation or a practical experiment) the amount of available roof space on a narrowboat isn't enough, to fit the solar panels, to provide the electricity at a rate, to be able to satisfy the (electric) motor.

 

So yes, it helps, and saves buying electricity, but unless you did little/no cruising, solar alone won't be enough so we're back to needing to plug in the boat at the end of the day. 

 

I know you wrote (can't remember if on another thread) that you DID have enough off of solar, but its exceptionally good in summer at the moment and I think you did 5 hours? Does your boat have gas or is it electric cooking too?

I have an induction job for summer and Rayburn Royal for winter, it does hot water and central heating. I am on broad and deep water which helps with power consumption, my cruising pattern is no different to when it was diesel after 5 hours I bored to tears! 2-3 hours is enough for me, to much to see and do on land I am afraid 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

I think the shift to electric is more/less inevitable, so SOMETHING will have to be done, by SOMEONE.

But who is that SOMEONE? Nothing will happen if SOMEONE can't make money out of it.

A few boat charging points might get installed at marinas, especially if they operate day hire boats, but it is difficult to see where a network of charge points across the system will come from.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have an induction job for summer and Rayburn Royal for winter, it does hot water and central heating. I am on broad and deep water which helps with power consumption, my cruising pattern is no different to when it was diesel after 5 hours I bored to tears! 2-3 hours is enough for me, to much to see and do on land I am afraid 

But also you have 5kW of panels on a wideboat, not 2kW on a narrowboat...

[Paul C]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have an induction job for summer and Rayburn Royal for winter, it does hot water and central heating. I am on broad and deep water which helps with power consumption, my cruising pattern is no different to when it was diesel after 5 hours I bored to tears! 2-3 hours is enough for me, to much to see and do on land I am afraid 

 

I'd love to be able to do 2-5 hours then stop. Unfortunately, with a "traditional" setup of diesel engine charging batteries, no solar, etc that would inevitably mean running the engine while moored, which I hate (but needs must). Since the motor is running, might as well do the boaty thing and just see more stuff in our limited time (I work full time self employed and don't get paid on holidays, so need to make the most of it).

 

I know, I ought to get solar.

 

I think with the (widespread) prospect of free/cheap charging (ie solar/shoreline) every day or night, it will turn the traditional modus operandi upside down for many boaters. Gas-free is a kinda side benefit to electric boats, since their batteries are so huge and the high rate charging stuff is there....it makes sense, especially with gas being a fossil fuel too etc. Electric space heating will be interesting, if/when it comes to us, too.

 

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

But also you have 5kW of panels on a wideboat, not 2kW on a narrowboat...

4.6kw please, if I started again I could have fitted more but I have walkways on the roof 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

But who is that SOMEONE? Nothing will happen if SOMEONE can't make money out of it.

A few boat charging points might get installed at marinas, especially if they operate day hire boats, but it is difficult to see where a network of charge points across the system will come from.

Why is this any different to EV charging points?

 

The real problem is chicken-and-egg; until there are enough electric/hybrid boats to use them nobody will install system-wide charging points, but until there are system-wide charging points an electric-only boat isn't feasible for most people and a hybrid with a generator is too expensive...

 

Which means the private sector (who will only install points if they make money) won't solve the problem, however desirable it is to convert the canals to electric propulsion.

 

So the money (and the drive to make it happen) would have to come from the government (because it's a "green infrastructure" issue) -- but they don't have any interest in doing this... 😞

Just now, peterboat said:

4.6kw please, if I started again I could have fitted more but I have walkways on the roof 

More than double what can fit on a narrowboat -- that's what matters, not the exact numbers... 😉

[Paul C]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But who is that SOMEONE? Nothing will happen if SOMEONE can't make money out of it.

A few boat charging points might get installed at marinas, especially if they operate day hire boats, but it is difficult to see where a network of charge points across the system will come from.

 

I don't care who the someone is, its so far ahead in the future its pie-in-the-sky anyway. Hopefully the lessons will be learned from the disjointed, sporadic way charging has been introduced for electric cars, where there are basically not enough charge points, that aren't fast enough, cost too much and are too much hassle to use (download apps, sign in to subscribe, etc). They've introduced some law which forces them to now accept contactless payment.....but the price, especially for high-rate charging, is still a joke.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I'd love to be able to do 2-5 hours then stop. Unfortunately, with a "traditional" setup of diesel engine charging batteries, no solar, etc that would inevitably mean running the engine while moored, which I hate (but needs must). Since the motor is running, might as well do the boaty thing and just see more stuff in our limited time (I work full time self employed and don't get paid on holidays, so need to make the most of it).

 

I know, I ought to get solar.

 

I think with the (widespread) prospect of free/cheap charging (ie solar/shoreline) every day or night, it will turn the traditional modus operandi upside down for many boaters. Gas-free is a kinda side benefit to electric boats, since their batteries are so huge and the high rate charging stuff is there....it makes sense, especially with gas being a fossil fuel too etc. Electric space heating will be interesting, if/when it comes to us, too.

 

I worked out that I'll probably need to run the generator for about an hour per day when all-day cruising, when cruising not when moored -- this also heats the water up.

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

I don't care who the someone is, its so far ahead in the future its pie-in-the-sky anyway. Hopefully the lessons will be learned from the disjointed, sporadic way charging has been introduced for electric cars, where there are basically not enough charge points, that aren't fast enough, cost too much and are too much hassle to use (download apps, sign in to subscribe, etc). They've introduced some law which forces them to now accept contactless payment.....but the price, especially for high-rate charging, is still a joke.

 

Which is what happens if the private sector installs the charging points, because they're doing it to make money, and they can charge a lot for high-rate charging because the customers who want it will typically be on business where time is money.

 

It's the same reason that walk-up rail tickets or ones at peak times are so ludicrously expensive, either a distress purchase (you have to have it no matter what the cost is) or business is paying.

[Paul C]

I am assuming, an all-electric boat (or a hybrid running in electric mode) still has a requirement to cool the motor, and can still generate "free" heat for a cauliflower? If not.....then its a bit of an issue given that you kinda still need hot water on a boat, even in summer when space heating isn't needed?

 

Genny 1 hr/day - I'm assuming its some kind of Lithium battery setup and the genny is running at more or less full power (ie most efficiently for a diesel engine) during that hour? Sounds good.

[IanD]

35 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I am assuming, an all-electric boat (or a hybrid running in electric mode) still has a requirement to cool the motor, and can still generate "free" heat for a cauliflower? If not.....then its a bit of an issue given that you kinda still need hot water on a boat, even in summer when space heating isn't needed?

 

Genny 1 hr/day - I'm assuming its some kind of Lithium battery setup and the genny is running at more or less full power (ie most efficiently for a diesel engine) during that hour? Sounds good.

 

There's negligible heat from the motor/controller when cruising because it's far more efficient than a diesel. If you run a diesel at 3kW when cruising it will be no more than 20% efficient, typically the rest will be equally split between exhaust and cooling system so 6kW to each. An electric propulsion system will typically be 85%-90% efficient, so less than 500W for heating (assuming that both motor and controller are water-cooled and connected to the calorifier, which they won't usually be).

 

Yes that's running a 9kVA generator to charge the LFP batteries at 7kW (peak efficiency, about 25%) to replace the 7kWh/day that doesn't come from solar (in the summer) -- this assumes a full day of cruising. That's plenty of time (and heat) to provide hot water, assuming the calorifier has "solar" (high-yield) heating coils, standard ones only run at about 1kW. The other calorifier coil connects to the diesel CH boiler, for hot water on days when the generator is not running (e.g. moored up) -- unless there's enough spare solar power to run an immersion heater.

Edited July 13, 2022 by IanD

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Why is this any different to EV charging points?

Because EVs are a much larger market. Many (but not all) EV owners can charge at home and/or work, which is sufficient for most journeys, with occasional use of commercial fast chargers at locations such as motorway services for longer journeys. So the average EV owner doesn't need a widespread network of chargers.

That arrangement doesn't work for a week long boat trip where the boater needs guaranteed availability of chargers at every overnight mooring location, if an electric only boat is to be a practical option.

And add to that that government is promoting the installation of public EV chargers as a matter of policy. I can't see any corresponding encouragement (or public funding) for canal based charging points.

Edited July 13, 2022 by David Mack