Hybrid drive conversion question

[Bargebuilder]

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 For me hydrogen is a dead end until it can be produced cheaply and cleanly unfortunately its neither at the moment so the full roof of solar and  emergency genny stays

How far off are we, if it is being touted as the way forward for commercial shipping?

 

Presumably tankers and cruise ships  will burn huge volumes of the stuff directly in an internal combustion engine.

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I understand that the "Climate Change Act 2008" details what emission standards we will achieve by 2050

 

UK domestic policy relating to emissions of GHGs from the maritime sector is based around the Climate Change Act 2008, which requires that the UK contributes to global emission reductions by reducing UK GHG emissions by at least 80% of 1990 levels by 2050.

 

There are various planning and strategy documents that show how we will 'arrive' :

 

In 2008, Member States at the IMO agreed to a 0.5% sulphur limit for global shipping outside emission control areas (ECAs) from 2020 (subject to a review on fuel availability), a reduction of three percentage points from the current limit.

This decision was confirmed in 2016 at the IMO’s Marine Environment Protection Committee (MEPC). The UK continues to co-operate closely with other Member States at the IMO on detailed technical and operational matters related to the introduction of the 0.5% sulphur cap. The IMO is making good progress, and we are confident outstanding issues will be resolved before the implementation date.

 

At a domestic level, the Government’s Clean Air Strategy (CAS)40, which was published in January 2019, sets an ambitious and holistic approach to improve air quality and reduce emissions of air pollutants across all sectors, including the maritime sector. The CAS was designed to deliver the emission reductions needed to achieve emission ceilings in 2020 and 2030, halving the impacts of air pollution on human health and the environment. In the CAS, the Government committed to developing the Clean Maritime Plan, alongside a Clean Maritime Council to inform the development and implementation of the Plan. 

 

 

There are also plans in place (similar to the Clean maritime Plan) covering

a) Aviation and

b) Automotive.

Everyone is aware of the automotive plans (due to the millions of people who will be affected by it), & we all know that no cars can be / will be built after 2030 with ICE engines - unless some emission free fuel can be found to replace the current 'rush to BEVs'

I'm reading the Climate Act as establishing a legislative target of zero net carbon by 2050.  Although the Secretary of State can, by S2, change both target and date!

So it's perhaps arguable that everything is now required to be zero carbon by 2050 but only if you ignore the netting bit.

More realistically, underneath this are various plans and strategies including the Clean Maritime Plan which, as might be expected, also aims for the same in respect of boats.  The CMP is not legislation.

Unless there is anything further, I think it is stretching a bit to say that legislation is already in place to prohibit non-zero boats by 2050, because that is not so yet.

And more so the 2025 and 2030 aims of the CMP.  These are not yet law. Or are they?

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

How far off are we, if it is being touted as the way forward for commercial shipping?

 

Presumably tankers and cruise ships  will burn huge volumes of the stuff directly in an internal combustion engine.

 

Scottish Power applied for permission to build a Hydrogen plant (last year)

Green hydrogen for Glasgow - ScottishPower

 

 

I seem to remember a news article earlier this year saying work had started.

10 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

How far off are we, if it is being touted as the way forward for commercial shipping?

 

Presumably tankers and cruise ships  will burn huge volumes of the stuff directly in an internal combustion engine.

 

 

A £750m hydrogen production plant is to be built on the banks of the River Mersey.

Essar, which operates the Stanlow oil refinery, and Progressive Energy, developers of HyNet North West, an industrial decarbonisation cluster, have joined forces to set up a venture to produce low carbon hydrogen at the Ellesmere Port refinery.

The joint venture will manufacture hydrogen for use across the HyNet region and is expected to create hundreds of construction jobs, followed by thousands more across the region once the network is completed.

 

Plans announced for £750m Cheshire hydrogen production scheme | TheBusinessDesk.com

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

All diesel burning engines will be banned in 2050.  Hybrid or straight, they will all have to go.

 

 

  OOOOH!   Look a flying pig!

Another 30 years and it wont be my problem, I doubt my boat will even be about then

[Paul C]

My view is this:

 

1. At the moment, its not worth retrofitting hybrid to your boat, if its engine is working

2. If the engine is absolutely knackered, it might be worth fitting a parallel hybrid motor in readiness for some charging infrastructure to magically appear. Series hybrid....not so much.

3. Its not worth going "full electric" because the charging infrastructure is non-existent, except for a few edge cases. Maybe day boats just about squeeze into this too? Its very marginal.....

 

As the years go by, towards 2050, the balance from 2 to 3 will gradually shift.

 

At some point in the far future, say 2035-2040, diesel will become more and more difficult and/or expensive to obtain canalside, compared to charging. Then electric makes sense and swapping a working diesel engine for electric starts to make sense.

 

Interestingly, the same "conversion" will probably take place with bottled gas too.

 

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Presumably you have proof that old diesels only produce large particulates and that they are harmless.

 

I assume too from your reply that you have proof too that old diesels don't produce small, invisible particulates.

 

Even if you are able to demonstrate that both of your claims are correct, the exhaust of modern diesels usually exits the boat low down and behind the helm, so the skipper is much less likely to inhale it. Indeed some exhausts are water injected which is likely to reduce sooty emissions still further.

 

And then there is the noise, which I suppose you either love or you prefer the relatively quiet purrrrrr of a modern engine. At least that aspect won't damage your health.

 

I remain to be convinced, but I look forward to having my concerns proved wrong so I can enjoy polishing all of that lovely copper and brass work.

 

 

Wow I pressed a hot button there didn't I??!!!!!

 

Yes I have proof, thank you for enquiring. 

[peterboat]

27 minutes ago, Paul C said:

My view is this:

 

1. At the moment, its not worth retrofitting hybrid to your boat, if its engine is working

2. If the engine is absolutely knackered, it might be worth fitting a parallel hybrid motor in readiness for some charging infrastructure to magically appear. Series hybrid....not so much.

3. Its not worth going "full electric" because the charging infrastructure is non-existent, except for a few edge cases. Maybe day boats just about squeeze into this too? Its very marginal.....

 

As the years go by, towards 2050, the balance from 2 to 3 will gradually shift.

 

At some point in the far future, say 2035-2040, diesel will become more and more difficult and/or expensive to obtain canalside, compared to charging. Then electric makes sense and swapping a working diesel engine for electric starts to make sense.

 

Interestingly, the same "conversion" will probably take place with bottled gas too.

 

 

Got that bit wrong series hybrids good parallel bad, its down to dragging around a gearbox for nothing as well as wasting energy turning it. Plus you have a genny to produce electric cheaply rather than a drive engine producing it expensively! I only need 4hp to do 3mph, why would o want a 50 hp engine to do that? When an electric motor does it so well 

[Bargebuilder]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Wow I pressed a hot button there didn't I??!!!!!

 

Yes I have proof, thank you for enquiring. 

Of course you do.

[Paul C]

13 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Got that bit wrong series hybrids good parallel bad, its down to dragging around a gearbox for nothing as well as wasting energy turning it. Plus you have a genny to produce electric cheaply rather than a drive engine producing it expensively! I only need 4hp to do 3mph, why would o want a 50 hp engine to do that? When an electric motor does it so well 

 

There's a good theoretical debate to be had on the merits of series vs parallel hybrids on boat applications. All I can go on is looking at companies such as Braidbar Boats, who seem to have plumped for parallel. I am sure there's other builders who do serial hybrids though.

 

Either way, hybrids are a "stopgap" to solve the problem of limited charging infrastructure currently (and the continued availability of diesel, albeit at higher and higher prices). A good stopgap though, for a problem that shouldn't exist.....but does.

[Quattrodave]

9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

It all depends on how they are going to define zero emission propulsion.

 

And there in lies the question... I'm wondering if Synthetic fuels or sinfuels are to be classed as 'zero emission' its rather looking like they might be for cars....

Edited July 10, 2022 by Quattrodave

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Quattrodave said:

 

And there in lies the question... I'm wondering if Synthetic fuels or sinfuels are to be classed as 'zero emission'

Probably but in error as they will have to be made which will produce some waste products and use energy. 

[Quattrodave]

15 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Probably but in error as they will have to be made which will produce some waste products and use energy. 

 

Agreed but so does hydrogen production and so does electricity generation to charge all the batteries...

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

 

Agreed but so does hydrogen production and so does electricity generation to charge all the batteries...

Isle of Wight runs numbers on hydrogen from solar PV | theenergyst.com

[Bargebuilder]

7 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

whereas the much smaller, more penetrating but invisible particulates from more modern engines are fine, eh? 

 

Because they are too small to see?

 

"The new generation of diesel engines for boats have a significantly better environmental performance than the traditional engines. Smoke and fumes are things of the past, and there are around 60 percent less emissions."

 

Lifted from:

http://advantage-environment.com/experiences/modern-boat-engines-are-better-for-the-environment/

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

Yes I have proof, thank you for enquiring. 

It would be of great use to inland waterways users if they can read this. It seems that obvious academic research papers into vintage boat diesel emissions versus modern boat Diesel engines is nil, so maybe this could be the turning point. I’m not aware any in depth scientific work has been completed but we have to start somewhere. If it’s published research all the better, as it can be seen to be credible, maybe even peer-reviewed, and therefore there can be no issue sharing. 
 

Can we see it then please? 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, watchfuleye said:

It would be of great use to inland waterways users if they can read this. It seems that obvious academic research papers into vintage boat diesel emissions versus modern boat Diesel engines is nil, so maybe this could be the turning point. I’m not aware any in depth scientific work has been completed but we have to start somewhere. If it’s published research all the better, as it can be seen to be credible, maybe even peer-reviewed, and therefore there can be no issue sharing. 
 

Can we see it then please? 

 

If you look into the RCD list of approved engines you can see their emission results.

'Old' (vintage) engines are not allowed to be used in any new boats without being tested for emission compliance.

 

Propulsion engines are defined in Article 3(5) of the Directive. They are subject to requirements of Annex I.A.5 of the Directive with respect to their installation on watercraft and Annex I.B of the Directive with respect to engine's identification, exhaust emission requirements, durability and requirements on owner's manual. The exhaust emission requirements specify limit values for the quantities of specified exhaust pollutants from propulsion engines that may not be exceeded when these engines are in normal use. The exhaust emission requirements therefore apply only to engines installed or specifically intended for installation for propulsion of the recreational craft or personal watercraft.

[Paul C]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you look into the RCD list of approved engines you can see their emission results.

'Old' (vintage) engines are not allowed to be used in any new boats without being tested for emission compliance.

 

Propulsion engines are defined in Article 3(5) of the Directive. They are subject to requirements of Annex I.A.5 of the Directive with respect to their installation on watercraft and Annex I.B of the Directive with respect to engine's identification, exhaust emission requirements, durability and requirements on owner's manual. The exhaust emission requirements specify limit values for the quantities of specified exhaust pollutants from propulsion engines that may not be exceeded when these engines are in normal use. The exhaust emission requirements therefore apply only to engines installed or specifically intended for installation for propulsion of the recreational craft or personal watercraft.

 

You forgot to include a link too.

[Bargebuilder]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Old' (vintage) engines are not allowed to be used in any new boats without being tested for emission compliance.

But would they pass such a test.

 

Not sure if it's relevant, but this table indicates the progress made as standards have been tightened over the years; PM being particulate matter.

 

It may be that owners of traditional diesel engines who regularly inhale their exhaust are trying to convince themselves that it is safe, and not a cause of heart disease and possibly cancer too.

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

There's a good theoretical debate to be had on the merits of series vs parallel hybrids on boat applications. All I can go on is looking at companies such as Braidbar Boats, who seem to have plumped for parallel. I am sure there's other builders who do serial hybrids though.

 

Either way, hybrids are a "stopgap" to solve the problem of limited charging infrastructure currently (and the continued availability of diesel, albeit at higher and higher prices). A good stopgap though, for a problem that shouldn't exist.....but does.

Yeah Finness plumped for serial hybrid with Lithium batteries same as myself parallel hybrids are a bit of a bodge especially with traction batteries. 

Turns out now that Finesse has a full order book for electric boats and won Crick, they have no orders for diesel boats.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

You forgot to include a link too.

 

No I didn't.

[IanD]

On 10/07/2022 at 18:48, Paul C said:

 

There's a good theoretical debate to be had on the merits of series vs parallel hybrids on boat applications. All I can go on is looking at companies such as Braidbar Boats, who seem to have plumped for parallel. I am sure there's other builders who do serial hybrids though.

 

Either way, hybrids are a "stopgap" to solve the problem of limited charging infrastructure currently (and the continued availability of diesel, albeit at higher and higher prices). A good stopgap though, for a problem that shouldn't exist.....but does.

 

I spent a lot of time -- many months -- looking in depth into all the pros and cons of hybrids, and indeed whether to go for one at all. I started off leaning towards an ultra-well-silenced diesel (not a hybrid at all) with big externally-regulated (Wakespeed) alternators and lead-carbon batteries, looked in detail at parallel hybrids (like the HybridMarine system that Braidbar anothers use) with traction cells, and ended up going for a series hybrid with LFP batteries from Finesse.

 

The problem with the parallel hybrids (as available today) is they're neither fish nor fowl, they keep an existing diesel (usually Beta 43) with dual 24V alternators and gearbox and add on a relatively small 48V belt-driven motor/generator. The diesel is too big so still ends up running at low power levels whether running or charging batteries, and can only charge at a few kW (via inefficient alternators) when stationary because the motor is coupled to the propshaft after the gearbox -- so long running times and a lot of fuel burned if you want to do this, especially with LA batteries.

 

More and more builders are now going the series hybrid route, but because doing this properly (like Finesse...) is expensive they cut corners, typically using a cheap belt-driven motor and controller which hasn't got enough power for river use, a cheaper diesel generator, and an undersized battery bank -- often lead-carbon (or traction cells) which again means long running times to equalise the cells and prevent sulphation. A higher-power (and quieter) water-cooled PMAC motor/controller with a good-quality cocooned generator and a big enough LFP battery bank (and lots of solar panels) is the best hybrid solution, but is also the most expensive... 😞

 

As you say, these are all a stopgap until system-wide charging points emerge, until then an onboard generator is needed. Diesel consumption is typically at least half compared to a diesel boat, and can be zero in summer with not too much cruising, so it is "eco-friendly" from the emissions point of view -- but the fuel cost saving may never make up for the high installation cost, saving money isn't the reason to go this way, silent cruising is... 🙂

Edited July 12, 2022 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

On 10/07/2022 at 22:36, watchfuleye said:

It would be of great use to inland waterways users if they can read this. It seems that obvious academic research papers into vintage boat diesel emissions versus modern boat Diesel engines is nil, so maybe this could be the turning point. I’m not aware any in depth scientific work has been completed but we have to start somewhere. If it’s published research all the better, as it can be seen to be credible, maybe even peer-reviewed, and therefore there can be no issue sharing. 
 

Can we see it then please? 

 

On 10/07/2022 at 18:23, MtB said:

Yes I have proof, thank you for enquiring

 

 

It would have been great to have seen some proper research, but I suspect that there isn't any.

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

On 10/07/2022 at 18:23, MtB said:

Yes I have proof, thank you for enquiring

 

 

It would have been great to have seen some proper research, but I suspect that there isn't any.

 

I'd be very surprised if vintage diesels are anywhere near as clean on emissions -- particulates included -- as modern diesel engines, especially as used in cars with high-pressure common-rail DI, catalysts and particulate filters.

 

How much better they are than the "modern" diesels actually used in boats is another matter, since these really aren't "modern" in any sense of the word, they're mostly simple mechanically injected IDI diesels (e.g. Beta), or even worse mechanically injected DI diesels (e.g. Barrus) with no pollution reduction measures.

 

They're only "clean" in the sense that their exhausts are less smoky than most/many vintage diesels, they're technically comparable to car diesels from 30 years ago (like the Citroen/Peugeot XUD engines that I drove) which were certainly not "clean" by today's standards...

[Bargebuilder]

57 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I'd be very surprised if vintage diesels are anywhere near as clean on emissions -- particulates included -- as modern diesel engines, especially as used in cars with high-pressure common-rail DI, catalysts and particulate filters.

 

How much better they are than the "modern" diesels actually used in boats is another matter, since these really aren't "modern" in any sense of the word, they're mostly simple mechanically injected IDI diesels (e.g. Beta), or even worse mechanically injected DI diesels (e.g. Barrus) with no pollution reduction measures.

 

They're only "clean" in the sense that their exhausts are less smoky than most/many vintage diesels, they're technically comparable to car diesels from 30 years ago (like the Citroen/Peugeot XUD engines that I drove) which were certainly not "clean" by today's standards...

It's been suggested that the exhaust of modern boat diesels is actually more dangerous to health than that of vintage/traditional diesels.

 

The claim is that modern engines, although emitting visibly clear exhaust which is not as choking or pungent, the particulate matter size is dangerously small, whereas traditional engines presumably only produced large, visible particulates, which it is suggested are safe or at least safer.

 

Could this be the case, or is it more likely that traditional engines produce  more particulates of all sizes.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

It's been suggested that the exhaust of modern boat diesels is actually more dangerous to health than that of vintage/traditional diesels.

 

The claim is that modern engines, although emitting visibly clear exhaust which is not as choking or pungent, the particulate matter size is dangerously small, whereas traditional engines presumably only produced large, visible particulates, which it is suggested are safe or at least safer.

 

Could this be the case, or is it more likely that traditional engines produce  more particulates of all sizes.

 

It could be the case, but I'd need to see actual evidence to be convinced -- I think it's more likely that they produce more particulates of all sizes (but don't have any evidence of this).