Hybrid drive conversion question

[Tigerr]

Hi - looking at another boat and likely to be a 70' with a gardner in a room. Thinking about the future, is it feasible to retrofit a hybrid drive system with an older engine like this? Or is that just a ridiculous idea? I am sure someone here will know the answer. 

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

Hi - looking at another boat and likely to be a 70' with a gardner in a room. Thinking about the future, is it feasible to retrofit a hybrid drive system with an older engine like this? Or is that just a ridiculous idea? I am sure someone here will know the answer. 

 

Technically feasible if you have unlimited funds I believe, but ridiculously expensive unless you are DIYing it.

 

'Probably' cheaper to sell the boat and buy a new electric one than pay someone to convert it. 

[Tigerr]

26 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Technically feasible if you have unlimited funds I believe, but ridiculously expensive unless you are DIYing it.

 

'Probably' cheaper to sell the boat and buy a new electric one than pay someone to convert it. 

Thought as much. Thanks.

[Bargebuilder]

But are diesel engines ever going to suffer an outright ban, or like cars, will they just be allowed to disappear with age? I suspect that Gardner's and the like could be nursed to go on forever.

 

Diesel might become unavailable, but that's hybrids out too.

 

Perhaps recent, cleaner burning diesels will be allowed to continue, but smokey old engines banned, but that seems unlikely.

 

You should be fine for many tens of years, but whether the fuel will be affordable is another matter🙂

[Tracy D'arth]

All diesel burning engines will be banned in 2050.  Hybrid or straight, they will all have to go.

 

 

  OOOOH!   Look a flying pig!

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

All diesel burning engines will be banned in 2050.  Hybrid or straight, they will all have to go.

 

 

 

 

That is not completely correct,

 

The statement is "All boats must have 'zero emission propulsion' by 2050" - so that is direct Diesel drive and hybrids banned.

 

It will be still be possible to have a diesel engine, driving an alternator / generator and charging the batteries that are connected to an electric motor that actually propels the boat.

 

So, yes you could retain your historic engine for as long as diesel is available, but you will need to disconnect it from the prop-shaft.

 

Yes - its stupid but I am simply the messenger !

[Tracy D'arth]

It all depends on how they are going to define zero emission propulsion. Obviously charging a battery with a diesel and using the battery to move the boat is only zero emission whilst the battery is the sole power source, the wording is an ass.

Why would you use a socking great Gardner just to charge batteries?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Why would you use a socking great Gardner just to charge batteries?

 

I wouldn't, but if you've got one and you like the noise then ...............................

 

I'm not into traditional engines - I've even been to look at 'perfect' boats to buy and walked away becuse they have an 'old lump' taking up space in the cabin.

 

It's a good job we are not all the same!

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That is not completely correct,

 

The statement is "All boats must have 'zero emission propulsion' by 2050" - so that is direct Diesel drive and hybrids banned.

 

It will be still be possible to have a diesel engine, driving an alternator / generator and charging the batteries that are connected to an electric motor that actually propels the boat.

 

So, yes you could retain your historic engine for as long as diesel is available, but you will need to disconnect it from the prop-shaft.

 

Yes - its stupid but I am simply the messenger !

How will that effect cruise ships, bulk carriers, tankers etc?

[Bargebuilder]

51 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm not into traditional engines - I've even been to look at 'perfect' boats to buy and walked away becuse they have an 'old lump' taking up space in the cabin.

I just love old Gardner's etc, but only in other people's boats. All that noise and an exhaust just feet in front of your nose chucking out all sorts of particulates that have no place in your lungs.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

How will that effect cruise ships, bulk carriers, tankers etc?

 

All boats in UK waters both coastal and inland waterways.

The non-inland waterways boats appear to be moving towards Hydrogen fuel, and 'hydrogen bunkerage' is already being put in place around the coast and there are plans to use the 'mains gas pipelines' to move Hydrogen around the country.

[Tacet]

I understand the 2050 thing is a proposal rather than a law currently in place.

 

It might well happen - as might the projected  reductions in income tax.  Time will tell.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

How will that effect cruise ships, bulk carriers, tankers etc?

 

This shows the situation 4 years ago, since that time several Hydrogen and LNG bunkerage sites have been developed - I think there are now additional ones coming on line. one on the West coast of Scotland and one West of Manchester, and another on the South coast.

 

Despite the forum naysayers, it does seem to be happening

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Bargebuilder]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

This shows the situation 4 years ago, since that time several Hydrogen and LNG bunkerage sites have been developed - I think there are now additional ones coming on line. one on the West coast of Scotland and one West of Manchester, and another on the South coast.

 

Despite the forum naysayers, it does seem to be happening

 

 

 

 

 

How does the cost of hydrogen compare with that of the filthy heavy oil they currently burn? Will that be the end of cheap cruise holidays?

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Tacet said:

I understand the 2050 thing is a proposal rather than a law currently in place.

 

It might well happen - as might the projected  reductions in income tax.  Time will tell.

 

 

The legislation is already in place (and has been since 2008). The documents produced are the 'road map' of how we achieve what is already stated in Law.

 

You know where you are going to and there are various routes you could use.

You arrival point is fixed but you can choose which route you wish to take, but once chosen you are committed.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Alan de Enfield]

 

The Governments plan does include the inland waterways, although some seem to think it doesn't.

 

 

Page 11 :

 

"..for standardising environmental
regulations for vessels operating
domestically within the UK, including
inland waterways....."

 

Page 12

"..... the RTFO
currently applies to fuel suppliers for the
non-road mobile machinery (NRMM)
sectors, the definition of which includes
inland shipping and recreational craft that
do not normally operate at sea......"

 

 

Page 20

"..... emissions from vessels operating
domestically within the UK, including
inland waterways....The aim of this work
is to collect a body of evidence that
will give a clearer picture of the extent
of emissions from domestic and inland
waterway vessels.."

Edited July 10, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tacet]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The legislation is already in place (and has been since 2008). The documents produced are the 'road map' of how we achieve what is already stated in Law.

 

You know where you are going to and there are various routes you could use.

You arrival point is fixed but you can choose which route you wish to take, but once chosen you are committed.

Thanks.  I had not appreciated that there was legislation already in place to this effect. The Department of Transport Clean Maritime Plan 2050 makes no reference I can find.

 

What is the formal title of the relevant legislation, please?

 

[MtB]

52 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I just love old Gardner's etc, but only in other people's boats. All that noise and an exhaust just feet in front of your nose chucking out all sorts of particulates that have no place in your lungs.

 

 

whereas the much smaller, more penetrating but invisible particulates from more modern engines are fine, eh? 

 

Because they are too small to see?

 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

This shows the situation 4 years ago, since that time several Hydrogen and LNG bunkerage sites have been developed - I think there are now additional ones coming on line. one on the West coast of Scotland and one West of Manchester, and another on the South coast.

 

Despite the forum naysayers, it does seem to be happening

 

 

 

 

 

 

CRT should encourage the use of hydrogen for boat propulsion on their waterways.

 

Why, if the tanks were big enough they wouldn't have to worry about dredging or leaks... 😂🤣

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tacet said:

Thanks.  I had not appreciated that there was legislation already in place to this effect. The Department of Transport Clean Maritime Plan 2050 makes no reference I can find.

 

What is the formal title of the relevant legislation, please?

 

 

 

I understand that the "Climate Change Act 2008" details what emission standards we will achieve by 2050

 

UK domestic policy relating to emissions of GHGs from the maritime sector is based around the Climate Change Act 2008, which requires that the UK contributes to global emission reductions by reducing UK GHG emissions by at least 80% of 1990 levels by 2050.

 

There are various planning and strategy documents that show how we will 'arrive' :

 

In 2008, Member States at the IMO agreed to a 0.5% sulphur limit for global shipping outside emission control areas (ECAs) from 2020 (subject to a review on fuel availability), a reduction of three percentage points from the current limit.

This decision was confirmed in 2016 at the IMO’s Marine Environment Protection Committee (MEPC). The UK continues to co-operate closely with other Member States at the IMO on detailed technical and operational matters related to the introduction of the 0.5% sulphur cap. The IMO is making good progress, and we are confident outstanding issues will be resolved before the implementation date.

 

At a domestic level, the Government’s Clean Air Strategy (CAS)40, which was published in January 2019, sets an ambitious and holistic approach to improve air quality and reduce emissions of air pollutants across all sectors, including the maritime sector. The CAS was designed to deliver the emission reductions needed to achieve emission ceilings in 2020 and 2030, halving the impacts of air pollution on human health and the environment. In the CAS, the Government committed to developing the Clean Maritime Plan, alongside a Clean Maritime Council to inform the development and implementation of the Plan. 

 

 

There are also plans in place (similar to the Clean maritime Plan) covering

a) Aviation and

b) Automotive.

Everyone is aware of the automotive plans (due to the millions of people who will be affected by it), & we all know that no cars can be / will be built after 2030 with ICE engines - unless some emission free fuel can be found to replace the current 'rush to BEVs'

Edited July 10, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

whereas the much smaller, more penetrating but invisible particulates from more modern engines are fine, eh? 

 

Because they are too small to see?

 

Presumably you have proof that old diesels only produce large particulates and that they are harmless.

 

I assume too from your reply that you have proof too that old diesels don't produce small, invisible particulates.

 

Even if you are able to demonstrate that both of your claims are correct, the exhaust of modern diesels usually exits the boat low down and behind the helm, so the skipper is much less likely to inhale it. Indeed some exhausts are water injected which is likely to reduce sooty emissions still further.

 

And then there is the noise, which I suppose you either love or you prefer the relatively quiet purrrrrr of a modern engine. At least that aspect won't damage your health.

 

I remain to be convinced, but I look forward to having my concerns proved wrong so I can enjoy polishing all of that lovely copper and brass work.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

CRT should encourage the use of hydrogen for boat propulsion on their waterways.

 

Why, if the tanks were big enough they wouldn't have to worry about dredging or leaks... 😂🤣

Funny you should say that because Birmingham university tried and failed and now Finness boats have been tasked with trying, Ricky knows its doomed to failure but if they want to pay him to find out who his he to turn down the money?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Tacet said:

Thanks.  I had not appreciated that there was legislation already in place to this effect. The Department of Transport Clean Maritime Plan 2050 makes no reference I can find.

 

What is the formal title of the relevant legislation, please?

 

I can’t seem to find where this is specific enshrined in any law. Anyone got any ideas? Seems like an idea rather than legislation. 
 

As an aside, I’ve emailed the maritime minister Robert Courts to ask how they see this policy applying to inland waterways, given that the document is not specific. I previously contacted Nusrat Ghani (previous minister) but she did not reply. 
 

I’ll post the reply if I get one. 

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Funny you should say that because Birmingham university tried and failed and now Finness boats have been tasked with trying, Ricky knows its doomed to failure but if they want to pay him to find out who his he to turn down the money?

 

It is just over 50 years since I first went to college, and the hydrogen fuel cell was "just a few year away from viable production" then.

 

Having said that, technically they work well now. It is just a question of how cheaply the fuel cells and how chay and cleanly the hydrogen can be produced.

 

Is the Birmingham University boat still moored on the Campus? It was the last time I passed that way, but looking very neglected.

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

It is just over 50 years since I first went to college, and the hydrogen fuel cell was "just a few year away from viable production" then.

 

Having said that, technically they work well now. It is just a question of how cheaply the fuel cells and how chay and cleanly the hydrogen can be produced.

 

Is the Birmingham University boat still moored on the Campus? It was the last time I passed that way, but looking very neglected.

I think we had a topic on it and someone commented its was still sat there gathering rust! For me hydrogen is a dead end until it can be produced cheaply and cleanly unfortunately its neither at the moment so the full roof of solar and  emergency genny stays