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Compost toilets: separating fact from fiction (workshop)


Kate_MM

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20 hours ago, magnetman said:

I think it should be "separating liquids from solids".

 

I am a little uneasy around the principle of separate liquid and solid waste as it interferes with what is actually quite a personal part of human behaviour. 

 

Its a dodgy situation.

 

Suitcase is ok. Pumpout is quite often ok given sensible venting. 

 

Freeze dried long range mortar disposal is still under patent (my patent) and undergoing prototyping. 

 

You can also burn it. 

I do like the idea of long range mortar disposal. Solves the problem of waste and anglers in one.

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It's called the "out of shite out of mind". OOSOOM for short. Conveniently this is also the sound that the projectile makes on exit from the tube. 

 

Google maps app based guidance system with target accuracy within 8 metres at a range of 1 kilometre depending on wind. 

 

Most people would think it was just a self seeking satellite dish system while in operation. Very stealthy. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

There are plenty of biodegradable/compostable plastics on the market these days. You shouldn't chuck them into a toilet, you should compost them in a well managed compost heap, whether that's domestic or municipal.

 

In general, biodegradable plastics do not offer many environmental benefits in locations where municipal composting infrastructure is not widespread, unless they are home composted. They may also present several disadvantages compared to recyclable plastics: they may be mistaken by users as recyclable and contaminate recycled waste streams; end up being littered because consumers mistakenly believe they will biodegrade in any environment rather than the ones they were engineered to degrade in, and unless the compostable plastics raw materials originate from the byproduct or waste product of another industry there may also be the "land use" criticism which revolves around whether crops should be grown to produce plastics rather than food. 

 

If they end up in a compacted landfill environment, biodegradable plastics may degrade anaerobically releasing methane which has something like 25 x the global warming potential of C02. 

 

The other problem for any biodegradable plastics in contact with food is the Animal By-products Order (ABPO) which came into effect after the last foot & mouth outbreak of 2000/1. This prohibits compostable food packaging, food utensils and the like from being composted with green garden waste in municipal open windrows compost heaps, meaning the only viable municipal composting solution is within contained "in vessel" systems including anaerobic digesters where wild birds and other animals cannot come into contact with them. The only problem with that is that most local authorities just don't have much of that type of in-vessel waste management infrastructure. Home composting is still a viable alternative of course if you have a garden, but the demographic trends in this country with increasing population and people living in smaller units, means it's an option for a decreasing proportion of people.

 

For all these reasons, while they might sound good to the average consumer, biodegradable/compostable plastics are being rejected by the major retailers and they remain a niche area in terms of solutions to single use plastics and waste management.  

Yes, after a bit of Googling I came to a similar conclusion. 
I bought them by mistake, stupidly thinking I was buying wooden spoons. 
🙄 

 

I was being facetious about chucking them down the toilet. 
Or is it faecetious?

 

 

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6 hours ago, tree monkey said:

I have massive respect for Kate and her dedication to making composting/separating bogs work and her willingness to put herself forward as a voice of the things, certainly in the face of the snark she often gets on here.

 

I'm sure, in fact I know there are people who misuse separating bogs, just as there are peeps who misuse cassette and pump outs, what I would be willing to bet is Kate would condem all of that.

 

Why don't you actually join the chat and ask some questions rather than snipe from the side lines and maybe learn something. 

 

Grumpy monkey with a high temp buggering off now 

 

 

 

Well I would agree with you but for one teeny little problem. If Kate could possibly manage to stop calling them "Compost toilets" which is grossly misleading because they are anything but, I would no longer feel the need to "snipe from the sidelines". 

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5 hours ago, blackrose said:

This prohibits compostable food packaging, food utensils and the like from being composted with green garden waste in municipal open windrows compost heaps, meaning the only viable municipal composting solution is within contained "in vessel" systems including anaerobic digesters where wild birds and other animals cannot come into contact with them. The only problem with that is that most local authorities just don't have much of that type of in-vessel waste management infrastructure. Home composting is still a viable alternative of course if you have a garden,

And wild birds and other animals know not to go near home compost heaps?

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On 08/06/2022 at 22:21, magnetman said:

I think it should be "separating liquids from solids".

 

I am a little uneasy around the principle of separate liquid and solid waste as it interferes with what is actually quite a personal part of human behaviour. 

 

My body pre-separates liquids from solids.  If yours doesn't, I recommend immediately calling 999 and asking for an ambulance!

 

 

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3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Well I would agree with you but for one teeny little problem. If Kate could possibly manage to stop calling them "Compost toilets" which is grossly misleading because they are anything but, I would no longer feel the need to "snipe from the sidelines". 

You know what I agree about the use of the term composting, they are separating not composting but even that isn't a reason for the forum hordes to desend.

I have absolutely no skin in this game, I don't want a separating bog but as far as I can see Kate has spent an massive amount of time making the system work from deposit to proper compost.

 

Grumpy monkey post

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6 hours ago, David Mack said:

And wild birds and other animals know not to go near home compost heaps?

 

People can do what they want at home as home composting heaps do not come under the ABPO. I didn't say it made sense but that's just the way it is.

 

It's a bit like how there's nothing to stop a private householder chucking small amounts of old medicines, paint, batteries, and other household hazardous waste (HHW) into their general waste bin, which might end up in landfill where it could leach out and potentially contaminate groundwater. Local authorities and businesses can't put hazardous waste into landfill. 

Edited by blackrose
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6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

My body pre-separates liquids from solids.  If yours doesn't, I recommend immediately calling 999 and asking for an ambulance!

 

 

The discussion is about the lavatory not the body. 

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Since many meetings became virtual in the past two years, the term Workshop seems even more off kilter.

 

While I could allow that people meeting in a real room yet with no tools or materials to work with might be enjoying a workshop (if they took part in role play, acrobatics or voice exercises, for example), I struggle to see how some people listening online to a person asking about their knowledge of separating toilets (remember, you are allowed to switch off your webcam after the introductions) constitutes a 'workshop' in any way. Unless you at some stage download a 3D drawing and go on to print in plastic on your 3D printer something useful such as the urine funnel, always an overpriced item to obtain if you  are going homebrew.

 

It's the Americanisation of language into business 'team worker' jargon.

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You are showing some signs of blue sky thinking. 

 

It is important when discussing the on board lavatory arrangements to "think outside of the box". 

Edited by magnetman
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17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

You are showing some signs of blue sky thinking. 

 

It is important when discussing the on board lavatory arrangements to "think outside of the box". 

 

I realise this is low-hanging fruit, but i’ll take a helicopter view of it while you kick the can down the road. Perhaps we could put a pin in it whilst letting others run it up the flagpole and get their ducks in a row because the data never lies.

Teamwork makes the dream work ;) 

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2 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

 

I realise this is low-hanging fruit, but i’ll take a helicopter view of it while you kick the can down the road. Perhaps we could put a pin in it whilst letting others run it up the flagpole and get their ducks in a row because the data never lies.

Teamwork makes the dream work ;) 

 

I didn't realise you were in IT...

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1 minute ago, Bacchus said:

 

I didn't realise you were in IT...

Not anymore, but the better half is rather high up in the HR/PR side of a global company, its hard not to hear the guff coming out of online meetings or the content she has to review. It’s great ammunition for taking the mick, as long as you can stay out of striking range ;) You don’t mess with a redhead lightly :D 

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2 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Not anymore, but the better half is rather high up in the HR/PR side of a global company, its hard not to hear the guff coming out of online meetings or the content she has to review. It’s great ammunition for taking the mick, as long as you can stay out of striking range ;) You don’t mess with a redhead lightly :D 

 

 

Personnel department, you mean? 

 

 

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1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

Personnel department, you mean? 

 

 

To be honest i’m not 100% on what she actually does, she started in Marketing on the tax side, then got absorbed into HR. It’s all future of work stuff and far beyond my ken. If i can’t plug a keyboard in it or hit it with a hammer i just don’t get it.

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

This sort of stuff perhaps?

 

 

image.png.06130e6c0dfc0273f2467d3dfdfa6e94.png

 

 

Currently flying the Q here in Bacchus Towers... (Covid 19 - just when you thought it was safe to go back into the supermarket)

 

(I wonder if I've got a coffee pot anywhere...)

 

 

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22 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

 

I realise this is low-hanging fruit, but i’ll take a helicopter view of it while you kick the can down the road. Perhaps we could put a pin in it whilst letting others run it up the flagpole and get their ducks in a row because the data never lies.

Teamwork makes the dream work ;) 

 

4ea81669fe7ec84bc329581edb35ca5e.jpg

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On 09/06/2022 at 08:09, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes - 'composting toilet' is a totally incorrect term, it is simply a term used by the deluded to convince themselves that they are 'green'.

 

The only way a toilet could be called composting would be if the contents were left for a year or three to actually compost.

 

Current toilet systems are simply separating toilets with the composting (except in a few cases) carried out by sticking the solids in C&RT's waste bins and pouring the liquid either in the cut or alongside the towpath.

 

Indeed! One of the fictions I will be dealing with is the term 'composting toilet'! Unfortunately it's become a sort of short hand for what is really a composting system. Just like 'pump out', 'cassette', 'macerating' are all short hand for other types of system. The toilet bit is just a funnel! 

Just now, Kate_MM said:

 

Indeed! One of the fictions I will be dealing with is the term 'composting toilet'! Unfortunately it's become a sort of short hand for what is really a composting system. Just like 'pump out', 'cassette', 'macerating' are all short hand for other types of system. The toilet bit is just a funnel! 

 

But thank you for your comment - you've summed up one of the myths very neatly!! 

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12 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

Indeed! One of the fictions I will be dealing with is the term 'composting toilet'! Unfortunately it's become a sort of short hand for what is really a composting system. Just like 'pump out', 'cassette', 'macerating' are all short hand for other types of system. The toilet bit is just a funnel! 

 

I hope you can achieve that.

 

As part of your presentation how will you address the stauation of disposal for CCers who have no 'land' to store it, or no wish to keep it on the boat for a year (or more). Obviously current restrictions of not using the Biffa Bins has made it so much more difficult.

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I hope you can achieve that.

 

As part of your presentation how will you address the stauation of disposal for CCers who have no 'land' to store it, or no wish to keep it on the boat for a year (or more). Obviously current restrictions of not using the Biffa Bins has made it so much more difficult.

As far as I can yes - the current EA regulations (which are seriously dated as they really only address disposal of material from festivals and larger scale events, rather than the very small scale domestic composting we are doing), and the current options for collection or donation.

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21 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

As far as I can yes - the current EA regulations (which are seriously dated as they really only address disposal of material from festivals and larger scale events, rather than the very small scale domestic composting we are doing), and the current options for collection or donation.

 

 

I'm guessing you are refering to these 'guidance' papers, which were all I could find when 'looking into' composting toilets - or as we now say "separating toilets"

 

You may have noted that to dispose of the liquid (urine) on land requires a licence or exemption permit from the EA - we had to have one at home, it is was something like £5 per annum.

 

Boaters disposing of the urine by pouring into hedge bottoms are probably unaware that they need a licence to do so.

Extract :

 

The separated liquid fraction can be:

• stored in a sealed tank and collected by a waste contractor for disposal at a STW

• discharged to land as is the case with traditional septic tanks. Where a discharge to land or water is being made an exemption or environmental permit will be required. Further information about exemptions and permits is found on our website.

 

EA Poition Statement Composting Toilets.pdf

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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57 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

 

Indeed! One of the fictions I will be dealing with is the term 'composting toilet'! Unfortunately it's become a sort of short hand for what is really a composting system. Just like 'pump out', 'cassette', 'macerating' are all short hand for other types of system. The toilet bit is just a funnel! 

 

How many people own a Elsan toilet to empty at the Elsan point? Is a trad Narrowboat traditional? what about the people who Hover the floor with a Dyson. and many many more.

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