Recommendations for installing Inverter, servicing engine and gas system on the boat (London)

[Tracy D'arth]

26 minutes ago, AndrewKyiv said:

Do you guys not have anything better to do?? Man the joke is over, horse has bolted, how else do i need to tell you?

Are you saying that you did not want advice and your original post was just to wind others up to create an argument?

 

 

If so you are a very sick person.  Sorry to have known you.

 

 

[Noviceboata]

You asked me a question and then answered it for me )  I appeciate the helpful information from everybody (including you) and I believe I got the answers I wanted earlier in the post. Please take a look at the last few posts and tell me if there is a bit of clowning around going on

Edited June 1, 2022 by AndrewKyiv

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, AndrewKyiv said:

You asked me a question and then answered it for me )  I appeciate the helpful information from everybody (including you) and I believe I got the answers I wanted earlier in the post. Please take a look at the last few posts and tell me if there is a bit of clowning around going on

 

Of course there is, and it is fairly normal on this forum if a poster displays the behaviour patterns demonstrated in this topic. Basically if you don't like the way topics develop then try another boating forum, or try Twitter & co. Carry on believing what those trying to sell you stuff tell you, that includes advertisers and what I think are called "influencers", and ignore those with considerable experience. What I will say is that the energy/power audit you put up looked very "rose-tinted" to me, as others pointed out. I also note that you do not seem to have done any charging calculations apart from planning to take one battery to work at a time or a whole bank to work for recharging or buy a 100Ah lithium battery pack that is equivalent to about a 200 Ah lead acid bank use wise.

[blackrose]

11 hours ago, sueb said:

I remember when hand tools were the norm. You really don't need 240v on a boat. Life is much simpler without it.

 

A hand drill to drill through 6mm steel? Do you remember actually using hand tools? 

 

I suppose life would be simpler on a boat without 12v power too! 🤣 Honestly some of the luddites on this forum amaze me. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

12 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

A hand drill to drill through 6mm steel? Do you remember actually using hand tools? 

 

I suppose life would be simpler on a boat without 12v power too! 🤣 Honestly some of the luddites on this forum amaze me. 

That's the great thing about boats. You can choose the level of technology you want and mix and match to suit your circumstances and wishes. Everything from all the latest electronic gadgets, through to reading by oil lamp and drinking a cup of tea boiled on the stove top, with water from a can.

[Rob-M]

As a child we managed perfectly well on a boat with one 12v leisure battery.  The battery monitor was the black & white 12v TV as the picture would start shrinking when the battery power decreased so we knew we had to switch off then.  Lighting was mainly from paraffin lamps, heating from the solid fuel stove which always had a coffee pot on top.  Battery was charged next day by going boating.

[Tracy D'arth]

Paraffin lamps!  Luxury!   We had to collect wax from wasps, steal string for wicks off BW ropes, spend all night rolling the wax on the floor to make a candle. Then rub 2 sticks together to light the candles.

 

And you tell the boaters of today this and they don't believe you!

[blackrose]

45 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

That's the great thing about boats. You can choose the level of technology you want and mix and match to suit your circumstances and wishes. Everything from all the latest electronic gadgets, through to reading by oil lamp and drinking a cup of tea boiled on the stove top, with water from a can.

 

Yes, very true. We all choose our level of technology I suppose. It's just that the people who choose not to have mains power, inverters, etc, always seem to take the high moral ground.

 

I really don't mind if people want to do without these things, but when they start judging others then they shouldn't be surprised if others respond in kind. 

[robtheplod]

Not sure if this is helpful or relevant here, but if getting an invertor its 10% off Victron this weekend at Battery Megastore offering next day delivery with cheap prices

[David Mack]

50 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

As a child we managed perfectly well on a boat with one 12v leisure battery.  The battery monitor was the black & white 12v TV as the picture would start shrinking when the battery power decreased so we knew we had to switch off then.  Lighting was mainly from paraffin lamps, heating from the solid fuel stove which always had a coffee pot on top.  Battery was charged next day by going boating.

And a hand start engine presumably.

[Tony Brooks]

36 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes, very true. We all choose our level of technology I suppose. It's just that the people who choose not to have mains power, inverters, etc, always seem to take the high moral ground.

 

I really don't mind if people want to do without these things, but when they start judging others then they shouldn't be surprised if others respond in kind. 

 

But when someone proposes a course of action that seems very ill-informed what should those who can foresee the likely problems do? Tell them everything will be fine and maybe snigger when it all goes wrong or try to point out the potential pitfalls. This particular OP seems intent on CCing (living aboard)  in London and when you consider the 8pm to 8am engine running curfew, the time at work and the probably short cruising range once every two weeks and the recharging for even modest electrical use during winter, assuming adequate solar, looks all set for battery problems. I think the advice to look carefully at his electrical consumption and think about a 12/24V only boat is sound. Remember there has been no mention of a cocooned onboard generator.

 

I could just as well respond to you that appearing to encourage people to think they can have all sorts of home type mains electrical gadgets without considering charging is grossly irresponsible. The fact remains that you do not NEED 240V AC to live a perfectly satisfactory and comfortable life on a boat. That is not judging, it is a statement of fact and many people have done it and proved it to be so.

[cheesegas]

Pretty sure the rest have it covered...on 240v power, it's great to have an inverter around the 1.5-2kw mark. I have one which does the following, and stays turned off most of the time.

- Runs the washing machine on a hot cycle. On the 30C cycle it's fed by a thermostatic valve so it peaks at 400w power usage usually

- Charges stuff I can't get a 12v charger for; Dyson vacuum, Bosch power tool batteries, quick charges my laptop (Thinkpad 12v slim-tip chargers max out at 90w)

- Runs power tools which I'm too cheap to get a cordless version for. 15 mins of angle grinder use is quickly replaced in the summer.

 

You'll want to convert most things to 12v, not 240v for efficiency; there's always some losses in the inverter. With enough solar, power is plentiful in summer but not in winter. If you have a narrowboat, get as many panels as you can fit on the roof, it won't be enough in winter for all your needs but it's fine for keeping the batteries topped up and powering routers/monitors etc.

 

And yeah, remember you can only run engines/generators between 8am and 8pm. With lead acids and 1kw of solar, you'll need minimum 2hrs of engine a day with average usage; LED internal lights, charging phones/laptops.

Edited June 1, 2022 by cheesegas

[Noviceboata]

6 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

With lead acids and 1kw of solar, you'll need minimum 2hrs of engine a day with average usage; LED internal lights, charging phones/laptops.

Thanks for that, very useful information. How much roof space in sq ft/sq mt does 1kw of solar panels take up? And I guess you have a 12v fridge as you are turnoing the inverter off?

Edited June 1, 2022 by AndrewKyiv

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

With lead acids and 1kw of solar, you'll need minimum 2hrs of engine a day with average usage; LED internal lights, charging phones/laptops.

 

Note the word minimum. That is probably in high summer. In mid-winter it will be longer and if you want lead acid batteries to last many hours longer at lest once a week. Lithium will charge far faster though and not suffer sulphation, but do need a far more sophisticated charging system. I am not sure many would find it possible to  fit 1kW of solar on a narrowboat.

[cheesegas]

Just now, AndrewKyiv said:

Thanks for that, very useful information. How much roof space in sq ft/sq mt does 1kw of solar panels take up?

1kw could be three 350w panels, each around 1m x 1.7m. Forgot to mention too that you'll need to switch your fridge off in late October and be very frugal with power
until March. On my 45' cruiser stern narrowboat I have two at the front on tilt mounts just after the chimney, and another on a roof box at the back. I don't use the roof in locks as I have wide gunnels, but it may be different on your boat. Mooring in places in London (much of the canal!) shaded by buildings won't help in winter. 

 

You'll destroy new batteries pretty quickly if you keep them in a low state of charge. At minimum, they need to be brought up to full every other day, which can take 5-6hrs. When I had lead batteries, the best way of doing this is to charge with the engine in the morning so it gets the bulk of the power in, and solar will finish it off during the day. 

 

Lithium batteries are a godsend though, you don't need to keep them charged like lead acid and will happily sit at 50%. Great for winter, but remember that you still need to charge them, power in = power out. Get a price from a marine electrician who is experienced in this, the charging systems are very different and I wouldn't recommend it to a casual tinkerer. Expect to pay around £2-3k.

 

 

  

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Note the word minimum. That is probably in high summer. In mid-winter it will be longer and if you want lead acid batteries to last many hours longer at lest once a week. Lithium will charge far faster though and not suffer sulphation, but do need a far more sophisticated charging system. I am not sure many would find it possible to  fit 1kW of solar on a narrowboat.

1kw of solar does all my power needs from March to early November, with the fridge being turned on late March and off early Oct, I don't run my engine/generator for power alone at all in that period. In winter, it easily keeps up with my monitoring system (two CCTV cameras, two Raspberry Pis), 4G router and dry toilet fan. Not enough if I'm on board too though! Moving weekly keeps them in float.

(the above is all retrospective as I'm now on lithium, but I did two winters with lead acids)

[Noviceboata]

9 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Lithium batteries are a godsend though, you don't need to keep them charged like lead acid and will happily sit at 50%. Great for winter, but remember that you still need to charge them, power in = power out. Get a price from a marine electrician who is experienced in this, the charging systems are very different and I wouldn't recommend it to a casual tinkerer. Expect to pay around £2-3k.

 

 

  

 

Just did a quick check and I see that lithium batteries are several times more expensive than the Lead acid one's. Is there any other advantage to Lithium batteries besides the 50% charge? How many of them do you have on you 45ft narrowboat?

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, AndrewKyiv said:

Just did a quick check and I see that lithium batteries are several times more expensive than the Lead acid one's. Is there any other advantage to Lithium batteries besides the 50% charge? How many of them do you have on you 45ft narrowboat?

 

Yes, they will take all the current the charging system can throw at them until you stop the charging, whereas lead acids soon start to gradually reduce the charge until you are only charging at a few amps even though the batteries are far from fully charged. They don't sulphate like LAs so have a far longer life measured in thousands of cycles rather than a few hundred for LAs

[cheesegas]

8 minutes ago, AndrewKyiv said:

Just did a quick check and I see that lithium batteries are several times more expensive than the Lead acid one's. Is there any other advantage to Lithium batteries besides the 50% charge? How many of them do you have on you 45ft narrowboat?

Stop thinking in terms of how many, think in terms of capacity; length of boat doesn't always mean more or less power is needed too; it still has one shower, one water pump etc. I have 400 amp hours of lithium. It charges a lot faster than lead and you can use almost all of the 400ah. 400ah of lead only has 200ah usable capacity. My 75 amp alternator will output a constant 50 amps (the regulator limits this) into the batteries until full. The same alternator with lead batteries will only be able to put 50 amps in for about 20 min before the ability for the batteries to accept charge reduces; charging to full takes many many hours. After an hour you'll be charging at only 10 amps or so, but the batteries will be far from full.

 

Also, the cost of the battery is only part of it - you'll need a new alternator controller and possibly alternator, plus reconfiguring and maybe replacing your solar and shore power chargers and adding a solution to charge the start battery if you only have one alternator. A typical 30 year old narrowboat will need much of engine bay high current cabling reworking/replacing to work with lithium

edit: Tony beat me to it on the batteries, in a nutshell!

Edited June 1, 2022 by cheesegas

[LadyG]

8 hours ago, robtheplod said:

Not sure if this is helpful or relevant here, but if getting an invertor its 10% off Victron this weekend at Battery Megastore offering next day delivery with cheap prices

I'm thinking about an inverter charger, thing is , is it safe to have it near to other ,inverter, how close is too close?

At the moment I use an automobile smart charger and wait 24  hours. Not often as I don't have regular access to shorepower electricity.

I have an ancient 12v fridge which is essentially used as a larder. 

So I'd need an electrician.

A fridge.

Wiring.

Unless I can find someone to renovate the galley and do the electrics, nothing is going to happen.

But it would be handy to know what I need, in case the opportunity arises.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm thinking about an inverter charger, thing is , is it safe to have it near to other inverter, how close is too close?

 

If you can touch both of them, at the same time with two very long screwdrivers with 'full out-stretched arms' they are too close.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you can touch both of them, at the same time with two very long screwdrivers with 'full out-stretched arms' they are too close.

 

Are you sure she is not talking about one of the new lithium battery pack with its charger & an inverter built in?  I suspect she may be.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Are you sure she is not talking about one of the new lithium battery pack with its charger & an inverter built in?  I suspect she may be.

 

That's the problem with using poor descriptions - as far as I am aware an 'inverter charger' would normally be a 'combination battery charger and inverter'

[Noviceboata]

2 hours ago, cheesegas said:

1kw of solar does all my power needs from March to early November, with the fridge being turned on late March and off early Oct, 

How do you copewith the 4+ months without a fridge?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Noviceboata said:

How do you copewith the 4+ months without a fridge?

 

For the first (roughly) 20 years of my life we didn't have a fridge, we had a stone slab in the pantry with  very fine steel mesh instead of a window.

 

Managing 4 Winter months without a fridge is simple, just use a bucket of water to keep the milk cool, and tuck the other stuff in a box in the cratch.

[reg]

Just now, Noviceboata said:

How do you copewith the 4+ months without a fridge?

Personally I move out of the bedroom into the lounge where I kip on the sofa.

I put food that needs cooling on the steps in the vacated bedroom the food is in front of the door vents so receives cold air flow.

That's how I do it other options and variations available. I cannot generate enough electricity from solar during winter so take the lower consumption option.

Works for me.