Winter Mooring - CRT miles per year still needed?

[Captain Pegg]

11 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Yes, but. If you have a winter mooring then tell CaRT that you are no longer CC. Re-inform them when you come into spring and your time on the mooring comes to an end.

 

Taking a winter mooring doesn't change your status as having declared that you are a licence holder without a home mooring, which is @dmr's point.

 

It effectively allows you to stay in one place for longer than 14 days but it has no bearing on the rules about what you do for the rest of year and what is necessary within the course of your licence to satisfy the board.

 

In any case your purchase of a winter mooring will be on your online records.

 

 

 

 

[dmr]

8 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Taking a winter mooring doesn't change your status as having declared that you are a licence holder without a home mooring, which is @dmr's point.

 

It effectively allows you to stay in one place for longer than 14 days but it has no bearing on the rules about what you do for the rest of year and what is necessary within the course of your licence to satisfy the board.

 

In any case your purchase of a winter mooring will be on your online records.

 

 

 

 

If you are not CCing tthen you have to declare a home mooring. You can select these from a dropdown list when you log on to your account on the CRT website. I am almost certain that winter moorings are not on that list, so you are still a continuous cruiser but with "permission" to rest for a while. The whole winter mooring thing is legally precarious and NBTA did threaten to mount a legal challenge at one time.  CRT will want you to declare that you are not using a winter mooring as your main or only residence.

[LadyG]

26 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Taking a winter mooring doesn't change your status as having declared that you are a licence holder without a home mooring, which is @dmr's point.

 fT winter mooring.

It effectively allows you to stay in one place for longer than 14 days but it has no bearing on the rules about what you do for the rest of year and what is necesshin the course of your licence to satisfy the board.

 

In any case your purchase of a winter mooring will be on your online recorx?

 

 

 

 

Oh, well, I just flip flop.i either have no home mooring.

Of I have a home mooring.not necessarily a CRT winter mooring. Could. E

[Captain Pegg]

11 minutes ago, dmr said:

If you are not CCing tthen you have to declare a home mooring. You can select these from a dropdown list when you log on to your account on the CRT website. I am almost certain that winter moorings are not on that list, so you are still a continuous cruiser but with "permission" to rest for a while. The whole winter mooring thing is legally precarious and NBTA did threaten to mount a legal challenge at one time.  CRT will want you to declare that you are not using a winter mooring as your main or only residence.

 

Yes, we're agreeing. I'm hoping to take a winter mooring later this year but it makes no difference to my status or to my legal duty to move other than for the period of it's validity, hence I won't be declaring anything to CRT. Just as I don't when my boat is on any other paid mooring. But CRT will know I have a winter mooring.

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Yes, we're agreeing. I'm hoping to take a winter mooring later this year but it makes no difference to my status or to my legal duty to move other than for the period of it's validity, hence I won't be declaring anything to CRT. Just as I don't when my boat is on any other paid mooring. But CRT will know I have a winter mooring.

Its all a grey area. Year before last we put the boat on a small offside mooring (run by a boatyard) for two weeks whilst we went to Cornwall. We still got an overstay email from CRT. I think that unless you declare any shortish term mooring as a home mooring then you are still a continuous cruiser and need to keep moving. I expect that if you put your boat into a marina for a month you get away with it because CRT can't see you. 😀

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its all a grey area. Year before last we put the boat on a small offside mooring (run by a boatyard) for two weeks whilst we went to Cornwall. We still got an overstay email from CRT. I think that unless you declare any shortish term mooring as a home mooring then you are still a continuous cruiser and need to keep moving. I expect that if you put your boat into a marina for a month you get away with it because CRT can't see you. 😀

 

I don't think it's a grey area. CRT's system is a bit crude and it doesn't easily cope with things such as taking a paid temporary mooring but you will have proof of that and ultimately the ball is in your court to prove you are compliant.

 

I also won't feel intimidated by any challenge from CRT but I appreciate that doesn't apply to everyone. Of course part of that is knowing I am compliant.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

38 minutes ago, dmr said:

I am almost certain that winter moorings are not on that list, so you are still a continuous cruiser but with "permission" to rest for a while. The whole winter mooring thing is legally precarious and NBTA did threaten to mount a legal challenge at one time.  CRT will want you to declare that you are not using a winter mooring as your main or only residence.

 

 

It is also known as "protection money".

"You pay us a chunk of money and for a few months, we will turn a blind eye to the law & we promise not to hassle you or put you into the enforcement process for insufficient movement"

 

The Mafia would be proud of C&RT - demanding money with menaces.

 

The Theft Act 1968 refers to blackmail as the making of any unwarranted demands with menace. “Menaces” refers to a high degree of coercion – so “demanding money with menaces” refers to a person threatening to do something the victim would not wish them to do if payment is not made.

[Captain Pegg]

I can buy a temporary mooring off any number of businesses who have leased/rented the space from CRT. Why is any different to do it directly from CRT?

 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It is also known as "protection money".

"You pay us a chunk of money and for a few months, we will turn a blind eye to the law & we promise not to hassle you or put you into the enforcement process for insufficient movement"

 

The Mafia would be proud of C&RT - demanding money with menaces.

 

The Theft Act 1968 refers to blackmail as the making of any unwarranted demands with menace. “Menaces” refers to a high degree of coercion – so “demanding money with menaces” refers to a person threatening to do something the victim would not wish them to do if payment is not made.

but its a popular option much valued by many boaters so not really protection money. You could argue that it should be provided for free, but then less income means less maintanance. The current arrangement has many advantages..  Is taking a home mooring also a protection racket?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

but its a popular option much valued by many boaters so not really protection money. You could argue that it should be provided for free, but then less income means less maintanance. The current arrangement has many advantages..  Is taking a home mooring also a protection racket?

I took a winter mooring at Tod the other year. 
One of the few that paid to 😃

 

I made sure I had prime site besides (not on) the services.
 

I do think it’s a racket mind.  
These towpath winter moorings. 
But maybe one that suits both parties. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

Is taking a home mooring also a protection racket?

 

No, because you sign up to 'keep' your boat on your home mooring , when you sign up for a 'boat with no home mooring' variation of the licence you sign up to move at least every 14 days (unless signed otherwise). by paying C&RT to turn a blind eye you are contravening the requirements of the 1995 Act. Apparently there is no option to change your declaration from being a 'CCer' to having a 'CRT bank-side winter mooring' as a 'home mooring'.

 

I do not disagree that it is a great option for some CCers, and I think that is why, after firing a warning shot across C&RTs bows, about the illegality of the scheme the Baton Twirlers quietly backed away so as to allow boaters to use the winter moorings.

 

The fact it is a benefit and no one wants to 'rock the boat' doesn't affect the legality or otherwise of the offer.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Its all a grey area. Year before last we put the boat on a small offside mooring (run by a boatyard) for two weeks whilst we went to Cornwall. We still got an overstay email from CRT. I think that unless you declare any shortish term mooring as a home mooring then you are still a continuous cruiser and need to keep moving. I expect that if you put your boat into a marina for a month you get away with it because CRT can't see you. 😀

 

 

In addition, ISTR a few years back winter moorings were not available AT ALL, to boats with home mooring. 

 

I dunno if that is still the situation now.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

14 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I think they may have stopped being a "satisfied board" at 20 miles annual range .. 

 

As anyone who read the Ombudsman report would now know and the reasons for dropping the 20 mile thing.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

In addition, ISTR a few years back winter moorings were not available AT ALL, to boats with home mooring. 

 

I dunno if that is still the situation now.

 

 

No, I guess it weren’t available. 
Why would it?

I understand the winter towpath moorings came about as a compromise with continuous cruisers who weren’t moving.
Or more to the point continuous cruisers who hadn’t been ‘required’ (?) to move for some time under BW. 

 

 

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, Goliath said:

No, I guess it weren’t available. 
Why would it?

 

Can we have that in English please?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, Goliath said:

No, I guess it weren’t available. 
Why would it?

 

 

 

That was when the threat of legal action started :

 

a) because it is not allowed in the 1995 Act

b) because it was only available to a select few boaters - it was not available to the vast majority. Discrimination.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Can we have that in English please?

 

 

Yea

which bit didn’t you understand?

 

I shall try:

 

I don’t think winter moorings were ever an option for those with a home mooring. 
Why would winter moorings ever be an option for those with a home mooring?

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

Its all a grey area. Year before last we put the boat on a small offside mooring (run by a boatyard) for two weeks whilst we went to Cornwall. We still got an overstay email from CRT. I think that unless you declare any shortish term mooring as a home mooring then you are still a continuous cruiser and need to keep moving. I expect that if you put your boat into a marina for a month you get away with it because CRT can't see you. 😀

Belfast had a winter mooring at 4 different yards over 4 winters, I had a CC licence throughout and never notified CRT of any change. Never heard a peep from CRT about it.

[LadyG]

When I went to a marina for a few weeks I changed my status from no home mooring.

I just assumed the  marina  became my home mooring.

CRT asked if I was paying, I was not sure, but I said I was, just in case.

So I think that is the re!event question.

dmr states CRT can't see boat in a marina. That is incorrect, surely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited July 9, 2022 by LadyG

[LadyG]

4 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Taking a winter mooring doesn't change your status as having declared that you are a licence holder without a home mooring, which is @dmr's point.

 

It effectively allows you to stay in one place for longer than 14 days but it has no bearing on the rules about what you do for the rest of year and what is necessary within the course of your licence to satisfy the board.

 

In any case your purchase of a winter mooring will be on your online records.

 

 

 

 

You think it does not change your status as a boat without a home mooring. 

I disagree.

You now have a home mooring.

Edited July 9, 2022 by LadyG

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

22 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You think it does not change your status as a boat without a home mooring. 

I disagree.

You now have a home mooring.

I think we’re on about different things here. 
We’re not referring to moorings in a marina over the winter

But the towpath winter moorings offered by CRT. 

[Captain Pegg]

27 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You think it does not change your status as a boat without a home mooring. 

I disagree.

You now have a home mooring.

It’s a bit of a semantic point because you have a mooring. And that means you don’t have to move every 14 days.

 

The key point though is that it doesn’t change your status as a boater without a home mooring in terms of requiring to satisfy the board that you have bona fide navigated for the duration of your licence.
 

Hence I refer to it as a paid mooring rather than a home mooring. I’ve recently paid to moor at Hawne Basin for one period of time and Saltisford Canal Trust for two separate periods. I didn’t consider that either constituted a home mooring.

 

Ironically if I do take a winter mooring it will be at the exact same place I previously had an undisputedly home mooring.

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Captain Pegg

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

When I went to a marina for a few weeks I changed my status from no home mooring.

I just assumed the  marina  became my home mooring.

CRT asked if I was paying, I was not sure, but I said I was, just in case.

So I think that is the re!event question.

dmr states CRT can't see boat in a marina. That is incorrect, surely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Depends on marina whether CaRT know about marina moorers. I cannot see why paying or not paying alters things.

[Captain Pegg]

Just now, Mike Todd said:

Depends on marina whether CaRT know about marina moorers. I cannot see why paying or not paying alters things.

Agreed, I don’t think it does. Although if you never had a longer than 14 day period between paid moorings you possibly wouldn’t have to prove any movement at all.

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, Mike Todd said:

Depends on marina whether CaRT know about marina moorers. I cannot see why paying or not paying alters things.

Not my interpretation, I am just saying that was what the CRT asked me when I said I considered I no longer had no home mooring status. 

It seemed obvious to me.

When in a marina I had a home mooring.

When I have no marina mooring , I have no home mooring.