Winter Mooring - CRT miles per year still needed?

[Midnight]

3 hours ago, oboat said:

 

 

Unfortunately, this is NOT so. 
Back through Burscough, no night stop, just about 2 hours for shopping however we get a CRT threatening letter. 
 

 
Move elz you vill be shot?

Edited January 30, 2022 by Midnight

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 
Move elz you vill be shot?

 

Yeah that's the one I had. You've had it too, eh?

 

 

 

I called them out on it by staying for another 20 minutes... nothing happened.

[TheBiscuits]

4 hours ago, oboat said:

It looks very much like over-zealous CRT volunteers at work

 

If they were over-zealous you'd have been logged in several other places so wouldn't have received the email ...

 

Burscough is notorious for it though, especially with the Liverpool run. 

 

That's why the letter clearly states 

Using our previous working days' sightings, it looks like your boat may have been moored in the same general area for more than 14 days.

 

No accusations in that bit, just information for you to either ignore or respond to.

 

42 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I often think those who respond with disproportionate rage at an email from CRT are also perhaps probing the limits. 

 

That's a good point!

 

As @dmr says, if you haven't actually been overstaying it's best to contact the named person on the email and get them to correct your records.  Three of these notices in a year and they might not issue a 12 month licence next time.

[David Mack]

50 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Its worth challenging them as they do stay on your record. However the CRT contacts appear to no longer answer their phones or reply to (or even read) emails.

I've had a couple of overstay emails, and I replied that we had been elsewhere between the sightings, and both times got a response back noting my comments and saying that the apparent overstay had been removed from their records. Can't complain about that really.

Edited January 30, 2022 by David Mack

[BWM]

22 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Not at all. Whilst I accept that there are some stretches of canal where it will be possible to travel 20 miles in a longish day, it hardly  justifies the generalized statement "I can't imagine why 20 odd miles would be daunting to anyone, as it is not difficult to cover such a distance in a day!" which your own response confirms.

 

I'm unsure which hair you are trying to split but my response confirms nothing of the sort, how did you reach this conclusion?

 The last long trip we made was from Cowley (Middlesex) to Knowle which took 5 days, in March with shorter days, this journey is quite diverse in frequency of locks, etc., so i would say fairly representative of most conditions. 

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I've had a couple of overstay emails, and I replied that we had been elsewhere between the sightings, and both times got a response back noting my comments and saying that the apparent overstay had been removed from their records. Can't complain about that really.

 

Exactly my experience too.  The first time I even offered them my GPS log of the intermediate journey but they didn't want it.

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I've had a couple of overstay emails, and I replied that we had been elsewhere between the sightings, and both times got a response back noting my comments and saying that the apparent overstay had been removed from their records. Can't complain about that really.

 

Ive usually found the same, maybe its the Northwest team that has gone wrong, Ive emailed three people (no response not even a read receipt) and phoned two (no answer) when trying to request an overstay...and now Ive got an overstay notice 😀

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, oboat said:

 

 

It looks very much like over-zealous CRT volunteers at work and poor CRT training.  

Its nether of these. The checkers are not volunteers and they report every moored boat they see. That goes into a computer system and if your boat is in the same location as the last entry and its more than 2 weeks the system doesn't know you have moved. The only movement entries on the system are from the towpath checkers so your bookings mean nothing. 

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, dmr said:

 

Ive usually found the same, maybe its the Northwest team that has gone wrong, Ive emailed three people (no response not even a read receipt) and phoned two (no answer) when trying to request an overstay...and now Ive got an overstay notice 😀

 

When telling them you need to stay a bit longer as is "reasonable in the circumstances" don't send it to a specific team member.  Send it to the  enquiries.northwest email. 

 

Are you in North West or in Yorkshire & North East region?  The split on the Rochdale is partway through the summit pound.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Yeah that's the one I had. You've had it too, eh?

 

 

 

I called them out on it by staying for another 20 minutes... nothing happened.

 

That will be because the CRT sniper was more than 3,500 metres away... 🤣

[dmr]

5 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

When telling them you need to stay a bit longer as is "reasonable in the circumstances" don't send it to a specific team member.  Send it to the  enquiries.northwest email. 

 

Are you in North West or in Yorkshire & North East region?  The split on the Rochdale is partway through the summit pound.

 

That might be part of the problem. As far as maintenance is concerned the split is at or just below lock 34 on the Yorkshire side, I assume enforcement (sorry boater support 😀) is the same, though the boat checker appears to cross the border, so maybe his split is the summit?. The Warland region (Rochdale locks 34 35 and maybe 36) is a sort of CRT nomans land.

The Lancashire-Yorkshire border has always been a bit flexible so maybe CRT are just continuing the tradition 😀.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

13 minutes ago, dmr said:

The Warland region (Rochdale locks 34 35 and maybe 36) is a sort of CRT nomans land.

I like the idea Warland is a no man’s land. 
 

 

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I like the idea Warland is a no man’s land. 
 

 

 

I thought it was @Jim Riley land ...

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

I thought it was @Jim Riley land ...

Maybe Dmr and Jim have a game of football at Christmas. 

[Jim Riley]

Nah we are separated by a border, he's on the dark side, me, the sunny side, Lancashire. We do leave food parcels at the border. 

I've had to leave my boat between 34 and 33 for a few weeks, sent them a letter but had no response, nothing pinned on boat. Shhh!

[oboat]

14 hours ago, MtB said:

 

True, but life is too short to put much effort into it.

 

if like me, oboat intends to continue cruising compliantly, then emailing back with a detailed rebuttal is all that is required whether or not they read it. Then if at some unlikely point in the future CRT decide to refuse him a license, he has an audit trail to point to.

 

I often think those who respond with disproportionate rage at an email from CRT are also perhaps probing the limits. 

Some interesting responses.
As said.
When we made representation to CRT all we got back was a curt list of where the boat had been. Presumably this will be fattening a file somewhere. 
No apology, thus little CRT credibility. 

Never had any recognition of the points I have made.
I now do disregard them. 
Unfortunately when one has a boating partner who is rules based they get very upset.
So basically I have to explain the nuances of the location & why we have done no wrong each time. 

The comments about employing somebody & costings are also interesting! 


 

[Iain_S]

Was the "curt list" accurate?

[MtB]

7 hours ago, oboat said:

Some interesting responses.
As said.
When we made representation to CRT all we got back was a curt list of where the boat had been. Presumably this will be fattening a file somewhere. 
No apology, thus little CRT credibility. 

Never had any recognition of the points I have made.
I now do disregard them. 
Unfortunately when one has a boating partner who is rules based they get very upset.
So basically I have to explain the nuances of the location & why we have done no wrong each time. 

The comments about employing somebody & costings are also interesting! 


 

 

 

I'm getting curious now. Was this interaction with CRT by email, phone, or in writing on paper? You started off saying you had a "CRT threatening letter". 

 

If you phoned them about it and adopted the same mildly cross and combative tone as you demonstrate in your posts on here, I can imagine the member of staff at CRT not being particularly apologetic in response. There is something that suggests to me you didn't start the convo with "I say Old Bean, I have this letter here are I think there has been just the slightest little bish-up over sightings, I wonder if we might have a little chat about it and see if we can put the record straight. Awfully good of you if you could..."

 

Or was it more like "WHY DID YOU SEND ME THIS LETTER, IT'S RUBBISH....'

 

I find myself wondering if your boating partner gets upset about things like this because they know you tend to go in all guns blazing rather than with the attitude of sorting out a 'nobody's-fault' administrative error. 

 

Forgive me if I have totally mis-read the way it unfolded.

[oboat]

25 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I'm getting curious now. Was this interaction with CRT by email, phone, or in writing on paper? You started off saying you had a "CRT threatening letter". 

 

If you phoned them about it and adopted the same mildly cross and combative tone as you demonstrate in your posts on here, I can imagine the member of staff at CRT not being particularly apologetic in response. There is something that suggests to me you didn't start the convo with "I say Old Bean, I have this letter here are I think there has been just the slightest little bish-up over sightings, I wonder if we might have a little chat about it and see if we can put the record straight. Awfully good of you if you could..."

 

Or was it more like "WHY DID YOU SEND ME THIS LETTER, IT'S RUBBISH....'

 

I find myself wondering if your boating partner gets upset about things like this because they know you tend to go in all guns blazing rather than with the attitude of sorting out a 'nobody's-fault' administrative error. 

 

Forgive me if I have totally mis-read the way it unfolded.

They were all e-mails and appeared to have been computer generated and had not been reviewed by a staff member, before dispatch but then I am probably wrong about this. 

[Midnight]

22 hours ago, dmr said:

 

Ive usually found the same, maybe its the Northwest team that has gone wrong, Ive emailed three people (no response not even a read receipt) and phoned two (no answer) when trying to request an overstay...and now Ive got an overstay notice 😀

Last year when we asked North West for an overstay in Nantwich to go home for a doctors appointment they couldn't have been more helpful. Just after they rang to confirm, the checker came wandering along the towpath. He too was very friendly even told me when he would be checking those moorings next. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Midnight

[Alway Swilby]

10 hours ago, Midnight said:

Last year when we asked North West for an overstay in Nantwich to go home for a doctors appointment they couldn't have been more helpful. Just after they rang to confirm, the checker came wandering along the towpath. He too was very friendly even told me when he would be checking those moorings next. 

Same with us in Birmingham city centre in Jan 2020. OH needed to stay in Birmingham for a third week for dental treatment. We went to the office at Cambrian Wharf and explained the situation. "Of course" they said. "No problem. Stay for another three weeks if you need to".

[ditchcrawler]

From the ombudsman report it seems that the 20 miles is misleading and has been removed from the guidance 

woc-annual-report-2021-22.pdf (waterways-ombudsman.org)

 

"I concluded that the Trust had acted in line with its policies and procedures and with the guidance it provides. The Trust has now removed some of the wording on its website FAQs referring to 20 miles or more of cruising being expected in case this was causing some confusion "

Edited July 8, 2022 by ditchcrawler
Spilling

[MtB]

57 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

From the ombudsman report it seems that the 20 miles is misleading and has been removed from the guidance 

woc-annual-report-2021-22.pdf (waterways-ombudsman.org)

 

"I concluded that the Trust had acted in line with its policies and procedures and with the guidance it provides. The Trust has now removed some of the wording on its website FAQs referring to 20 miles or more of cruising being expected in case this was causing some confusion "

 

 

I'd have thought the absence now of a distance threshold is even more confusing.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

I'd have thought the absence now of a distance threshold is even more confusing.

 

 

 

I think they may have stopped being a "satisfied board" at 20 miles annual range .. 

[Mike Todd]

On 28/01/2022 at 01:07, dmr said:

 

CRT can't specify a distance (its not in their legal powers) but they can and have (after pressure from boaters) given "guidance" on what is unlikely to "satisfy the board" and its a cruising range rather than a distance. Winter moorings don't really change this.

Yes, but. If you have a winter mooring then tell CaRT that you are no longer CC. Re-inform them when you come into spring and your time on the mooring comes to an end.