Winter Mooring - CRT miles per year still needed?

[doratheexplorer]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Sorry, but I disagee again. The animals 'home' is the centre of a circle, it 'ranges' 20 miles in each direction, not 10 miles in each direction.

That's just wrong, sorry.  I used to teach this stuff many years ago.  In ecology, range and territory are sometimes used interchangeably, although technically, a territory is an area an animal will defend, whereas a range includes all the the land it covers.  Sometimes the term 'home range' will be used, although the range of an animal is not defined by a 'home' at the centre.  Neither animal behaviour nor ecology work like that.  In fact, many animals do not return to a 'home' at all, yet they still have a range.  There are literally thousands of scientific papers where the range of an individual or species are discussed.  Have a trawl through google scholar if you like.

 

In most instances, the term range is used to imply an area of land (both boating and animal behaviour comes under this definition).  Your example of the range of a gun is different as it's used to imply something linear; a distance between 2 points.  That's because a bullet can only move in a straight line between 2 points.  A boat or an animal are not like that.  But unhelpfully, a canal is long and thin which means that boats on a canal do actually behave a bit like bullets.  Hence the confusion.  Hence my comment that you should not have raised it.

 

In any case, back when CRT were still talking about a 20 mile range, they did elaborate and it was clear at the time that they meant my definition, not yours.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, BWM said:

I can't imagine why 20 odd miles would be daunting to anyone, as it is not difficult to cover such a distance in a day!

It is if you want to stay in London

[David Mack]

11 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Not been on the Rochdale then ?  or the HNC, or even some parts of the K&A   or any other canal with a lot of locks 😀

True, but that doesn't negate @BWM's point. There are many places on the system where 20 miles, including in some cases a few locks, can be travelled in a day. The point is that nobody is expected to travel 20 miles every day they move. The requirement in the Act is to move to a different 'place' at least once every 14 days, and although 'place' isn't defined, a distance of substantially less than 20 miles per move is sufficient, providing that over the course of a year, you range far enough to demonstrate that you are genuinely moving, and not doing the bare minimum to stay close to one location.

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you sure ? 

Many do have a very small operating circle around their 'home / work' area, hence the frequent question "how far must I travel to comply".

If you need to ask then you are not a bona-fide CCer, You are someone living on a boat looking to save the costs of housing.

 

That's not really true, there are a lot of proper dedicated boaters who are limited by children, jobs, family etc but still want the CC lifestyle. Do not confuse these with the cheap housing people and the wannabee boaters who have watched a TV program and thought a big widebeam would be like a floating house.

We are lucky enough to have almost total freedom to travel and work remotely, but those who are not this lucky should not be denied the chance to enjoy the liestyle as long as they are prepared to put a fair bit of effort into making it work. 

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

True, but that doesn't negate @BWM's point. There are many places on the system where 20 miles, including in some cases a few locks, can be travelled in a day. The point is that nobody is expected to travel 20 miles every day they move. The requirement in the Act is to move to a different 'place' at least once every 14 days, and although 'place' isn't defined, a distance of substantially less than 20 miles per move is sufficient, providing that over the course of a year, you range far enough to demonstrate that you are genuinely moving, and not doing the bare minimum to stay close to one location.

 

Each move could be very small, though I am not sure exactly how small, as long as it is part of something approaching a continuous journey. The mystical figure of 20miles or whatever is the total cruising range. Some people say the range was set at just greater than the distance between Bath and the bottom of the Devizes flight. 😀

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It is if you want to stay in London

Anywhere between Uxbridge and Waltham Abbey is in Greater London. That's 37 miles by the shortest route, plus the GU down to Brentford, Regents and Lea South of Old Ford etc.  Even the lock free pound from Cowley to Hanwell to Camden is over 20 miles.

Edited January 28, 2022 by David Mack

[matty40s]

47 minutes ago, dmr said:

 The mystical figure of 20miles or whatever is the total cruising range. Some people say the range was set at just greater than the distance between Bath and the bottom of the Devizes flight. 

The mystical figure first appeared in enforcement proceedings around Oxford with some persistent overstayers. BW aimed at the worst 5% of offenders first, and these all had a range of less than 21 miles. 

[doratheexplorer]

This thread now demonstrates perfectly why CRT took any mention of mileage off their guidance.  The legislation is not interested in mileage.  It's interested in whether you're on a genuine, ongoing cruise, moving on from place to place regularly.

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The mystical figure first appeared in enforcement proceedings around Oxford with some persistent overstayers. BW aimed at the worst 5% of offenders first, and these all had a range of less than 21 miles. 

 

I thought it was in some way related to the Davies case on the K&A that CRT won. Did these happen at the same time? Somebody really should be recording all the stuff "The history of limited range CCing: Rules and Conflicts"  We could write a book.  😀

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I thought it was in some way related to the Davies case on the K&A that CRT won. Did these happen at the same time? Somebody really should be recording all the stuff "The history of limited range CCing: Rules and Conflicts"  We could write a book.  😀

 

 

A judge also said that distance was no measure of the boat being used "bona fide for navigation"

 

The judgement in the case of CaRT v Mayers states that repeated journeys between the same two places would be 'bona fide navigation' if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. HHJ Halbert also stated that any requirement by CaRT to use a substantial part of the canal network was not justified by Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 because the requirement to use the boat for bona fide navigation is 'temporal not geographical'.

 

7.22.4
If a person who lived permanently on his or her boat had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal between two points sufficiently far apart to be regarded as different places, it would in my view be purposeful movement by water from one place to another and hence “bona fide navigation”. In the course of argument I used the example of someone who lived on his boat but was also using the vessel commercially to move coal from a mine to an iron foundry only a few miles away and then returning empty for another load.

7.22.5
To take an extreme example, in its heyday, the Mersey Ferry operated continuously to and fro over the same stretch of water which is less than a mile wide. No one would ever have accepted the suggestion that the ferry boats were not bona fide used  for navigation throughout the period of their operations.

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

That's not really true, there are a lot of proper dedicated boaters who are limited by children, jobs, family etc but still want the CC lifestyle. Do not confuse these with the cheap housing people and the wannabee boaters who have watched a TV program and thought a big widebeam would be like a floating house.

We are lucky enough to have almost total freedom to travel and work remotely, but those who are not this lucky should not be denied the chance to enjoy the liestyle as long as they are prepared to put a fair bit of effort into making it work. 

The lifestyle is one in which movement is continuous, as written on the tin.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

 

Not been on the Rochdale then ?  or the HNC, or even some parts of the K&A   or any other canal with a lot of locks 😀

 

I have to say I was thinking the same. As a solo boater I'd find it really difficult to to 20 miles in a day unless I found an exceptional piece of canal with no locks, and I didn't need to stop for water, shopping, empty the bog etc. 

 

Here on the K&A it isn't difficult boating solo with a near full length boat to find I've only travelled five miles in a day on a stretch with plenty of heavy double locks. 

[cuthound]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

If it helps :

 

London Enforcement Manager Simon Cadek sent an email to a boater who was warned that they were on course for failing their six month restricted licence, telling them what they would need to do to "pass".

“When we are looking at boat movements we are looking for characteristics of bona fide navigation, these fall roughly into these categories:

· Range: by range we mean the furthest points a boat has travelled on the network, not merely the total distance travelled. While the BW act does not stipulate what that distance is the Trust has previously said that anyone travelling a range of less than say 20 miles (32km) would struggle to satisfy the Trust that they are engaged in bona fide navigation and that normally we would expect a greater range.

. For the avoidance of doubt, a small number of long journeys over a short period of time, followed or preceded by cruising in a small are of the network would not generally satisfy the Trust that you are engaged in bona fide navigation.

· Overstaying: we look to see how often boats overstay, either the 14 day limit on the main length of the canal, or shorter periods where local signage dictates, for example short stay visitor moorings.

While we are flexible with the occasional overstay from most boaters due to breakdown, illness or other emergencies, we will look at the overall pattern balanced with range and movement pattern in order to form a view.

Overstay reminders are issued when a boat is seen in the same area for more than 14 days. While we are unable to say how far you need to travel each time you move, we would advise that you normally travel further than a few km each time.

This will prevent you from getting reminders and depending on the length of other trips you make and how many times you turn back on yourself, should increase your overall range over the course of your licence.

 

 

Simon Cadek, that sound like a Scandinavian surname to me.

 

In which case perhaps he meant Scandinavian miles... 😂🤣

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile#:~:text=A Scandinavian mile (Norwegian and,source as the English mile.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

That's because a bullet can only move in a straight line between 2 points. 

 

Point of Order...

 

A bullet does not travel in straight lines, it travels in (what I think is probably) a parabola due to the effect of gravity. 

 

Jusss sayin'! 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, MtB said:

 

Point of Order...

 

A bullet does not travel in straight lines, it travels in (what I think is probably) a parabola due to the effect of gravity. 

 

Jusss sayin'! 

 

It also travels 'sideways' as due to the correolis effect of the earth spinning, the item you aimed at has actually moved since you pulled the trigger. This is something that shooters have to calculate when shooting at longer ranges.

 

Jusss sayin'!

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It also travels 'sideways' as due to the correolis effect of the earth spinning, the item you aimed at has actually moved since you pulled the trigger. This is something that shooters have to calculate when shooting at longer ranges.

 

Jusss sayin'!

 

I knew I'd drag it off topic with that comment! 

 

AND.... the effect of air resistance slowing the bullet stops it being a parabola....

[CanalRetentive]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

A judge also said that distance was no measure of the boat being used "bona fide for navigation"

 

The judgement in the case of CaRT v Mayers states that repeated journeys between the same two places would be 'bona fide navigation' if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. HHJ Halbert also stated that any requirement by CaRT to use a substantial part of the canal network was not justified by Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 because the requirement to use the boat for bona fide navigation is 'temporal not geographical'.

 

7.22.4
If a person who lived permanently on his or her boat had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal between two points sufficiently far apart to be regarded as different places, it would in my view be purposeful movement by water from one place to another and hence “bona fide navigation”. In the course of argument I used the example of someone who lived on his boat but was also using the vessel commercially to move coal from a mine to an iron foundry only a few miles away and then returning empty for another load.

7.22.5
To take an extreme example, in its heyday, the Mersey Ferry operated continuously to and fro over the same stretch of water which is less than a mile wide. No one would ever have accepted the suggestion that the ferry boats were not bona fide used  for navigation throughout the period of their operations.

I'm new to all this so I'm blissfully ignorant to any previous cases and history, but from a glance I would agree with the judge on this one. Bona fide navigation should not involve traveling to places you have no interest in, that's FORCED NAVIGATION. So if this case has been in the courts previously and the judge agreed with this, how does CRT have a leg to stand on when it comes to enforcing FORCED NAVIGATION instead of BONA FIDE NAVIGATION?

[alias]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

This thread now demonstrates perfectly why CRT took any mention of mileage off their guidance.  The legislation is not interested in mileage.  It's interested in whether you're on a genuine, ongoing cruise, moving on from place to place regularly.

 

I always assumed that the mention of 20 miles was an indication that, at the time, an enforcement budget would be consumed by chasing the number of people doing less than that at the time, so people doing more wouldn't be hassled. If most had been persuaded to manage a range of 20 miles, I suspect the "threshold for action" would have gone up to 30 or 40 miles. 

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, CanalRetentive said:

I'm new to all this so I'm blissfully ignorant to any previous cases and history, but from a glance I would agree with the judge on this one. Bona fide navigation should not involve traveling to places you have no interest in, that's FORCED NAVIGATION. So if this case has been in the courts previously and the judge agreed with this, how does CRT have a leg to stand on when it comes to enforcing FORCED NAVIGATION instead of BONA FIDE NAVIGATION?

 

I agree. If the boater considers themselves 'forced' to navigate then their remedy is to comply with the law by getting a mooring. And CRT's obligation is to deny them a license unless they have a mooring. 

 

 

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

To the OP

If you don't want to do long distance cruising then find yourself a length of canal, about 25 miles long, and spread yourself out fairly evenly over that range, and move every 14 days.. In winter you could probably get away with moving over a shorter distance (or zero on a winter mooring), but then make sure you move well in the summer. Going for a real good long cruise in the summer would also probably help, but note that spending 10 months moving between your two favourite spots and then 2 months proper moving will not be good enough. If this is your first year boating then try extra hard to be good.

Keep a good record of what have done as the CRT spotting process is not comprehensive (its intended to spot the bad offenders at minimal cost, not to build a detailed record of every boater on the system).

Or just cruise on your boat, and enjoy it rather than trying to out manoeuvre some artificial constraint. There are at least four hours of daylight every day, winter or summer, so I don't see a problem. If the locks are icy and  you are in danger of overstaying, advise the CRT of the current conditions. They will permit overstay. 

Please don't buy a boat if your main aim is contrary to the whole idea of bona fide navigation, buy a campervan instead, much cheaper, or a house, much more profitable, long term. 

How anyone would know they have no interest in a place they don't know is kinda irrelevant, they may need to stop there en route to a place their destination. Navigation is travelling a route from start to finish with some general intent to travel. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by LadyG

[matty40s]

29 minutes ago, alias said:

 

I always assumed that the mention of 20 miles was an indication that, at the time, an enforcement budget would be consumed by chasing the number of people doing less than that at the time, so people doing more wouldn't be hassled. If most had been persuaded to manage a range of 20 miles, I suspect the "threshold for action" would have gone up to 30 or 40 miles. 

That was indeed the policy hoped for by the Oxford CRT enforcement personnel

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Simon Cadek, that sound like a Scandinavian surname to me.

 

In which case perhaps he meant Scandinavian miles... 😂🤣

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile#:~:text=A Scandinavian mile (Norwegian and,source as the English mile.

de Enfield sounds like someone who is not a UK canal boater but who would be better posting on the Canal du Midi.com

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Point of Order...

 

A bullet does not travel in straight lines, it travels in (what I think is probably) a parabola due to the effect of gravity. 

 

Jusss sayin'! 

Depends if you shoot straight upwards towards the hevens

 

[TheBiscuits]

There's a lot of posters talking ballistics on this thread.

 

Which makes a nice change ...

[Slow and Steady]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

The lifestyle is one in which movement is continuous, as written on the tin.

What's written on the tin is "no home mooring" isn't it?