CaRT: Corrupt Management Fiasco

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

you would be more than a little aggrieved if there was nobody answering the phone/letter/email when you try to cancel your arrangement before the end of the nominal period, whether it is for boat licence, car insurance, whatever.   .....   and, as pointed out already, different rates would apply for a period less than a full year. 

 

who do you expect to pay for the provision of staff/offices, etc, in such circumstances?

how do you expect the service provider to accommodate your wish to cancel early, without you paying a sum to take into account the difference in rates for a part year?

 

 

The counter argument to that is - the staff are still being paid to be there irrespective of you calling them or not. There is no additional labour costs to having them actually doing something rather than sitting playing scrabble.

The only 'on cost' to C&RT of you cancelling your licence is the refund cost applied by the bank - for example when I deposit money into my business account I get charges of 70p per £100, which can add up to a fair chunk if depositing "£ thousands"

 

 

 

Now - if your call required extra staff to be brought in to handle the increased workload that would be a different matter.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, john.k said:

Where a servant operates a motor vehicle belonging to his master in a manner consistent with instructions given by the master,then the master is liable for any damages .

And how likely do you think it is that CRT have instructed the driver to park the van across two parking spaces?

Edited January 26, 2022 by David Mack

[john.k]

Many years ago,I worked in a government department......when a person wrote in complaining ,standard procedure was to hold up the letter and wave it about,...exclaiming "This Bastard has written in complaining about  etc etc...and to dissect the letter in a comical manner".........

Edited January 26, 2022 by john.k

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

I always find the inclusion of an admin charge laughable. It's part of their work to communicate and they should pay back any unused licence in full. £30 admin is a penalty charge, for having to give back money they have no right to. They'll be expecting a charge to turn up for work next, or for plugging in the Xerox.  

 

Admin: There will be a bill for making out the bill, for doing the work we would have to do to make out a bill. Breathing in and out; something else we hadn't foreseen the need to do, in our costing anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

Someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but I am not aware of any legal reason why CaRT, or any other navigation authority, should give a refund to a part licence. You buy, say, a 12 month licence and that is it. The current T&C position is that you have to return the licence if, and only if, you cease to be the owner/operator of the vessel. IIRC, the same T&C do offer (voluntarily) a refund. However, £30 does not go that far in admin costs these days. I strongly doubt that anyone would win a court action claiming that the fee was excessive. Better than than lose the whole of the unused portion of the licence (which, remember, is not transferable).

[Higgs]

4 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but I am not aware of any legal reason why CaRT, or any other navigation authority, should give a refund to a part licence. You buy, say, a 12 month licence and that is it. The current T&C position is that you have to return the licence if, and only if, you cease to be the owner/operator of the vessel. IIRC, the same T&C do offer (voluntarily) a refund. However, £30 does not go that far in admin costs these days. I strongly doubt that anyone would win a court action claiming that the fee was excessive. Better than than lose the whole of the unused portion of the licence (which, remember, is not transferable).

 

But admin is not some extracurricular activity, as gardening isn't to a gardener's work. 

 

 

 

 

[john.k]

 a couple of years I had a building contract fall thru at the last minute.....anyhoo,one of the conditions was to open a joint bank account for both parties ......when the deal fell thru,the bank charged me $100 for the account facility.

[Alway Swilby]

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

But admin is not some extracurricular activity, as gardening isn't to a gardener's work. 

 

 

 

 

If you ask the gardener to do extra work above that already agreed then the gardener will charge extra. In cancelling a licence early you are asking CRT to do extra admin and it seems fair enough to me to charge for that.

[Higgs]

6 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

If you ask the gardener to do extra work above that already agreed then the gardener will charge extra. In cancelling a licence early you are asking CRT to do extra admin and it seems fair enough to me to charge for that.

 

That's the whole point. CRT have "volunteered" to refund, and what is an office for, if it isn't set up to be a part of the administration of a business. Nothing extra in carrying out work that makes the running of a business possible. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Higgs

[haggis]

I think charging an admin fee for making changes (including cancelling) a licence or policy is fairly standard practice now. I know house, car and boat insurers all do it and although it may be part of their business, if staff didn't have to make changes including cancellations, they could be doing something else or may not even be needed at all. 

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, haggis said:

I think charging an admin fee for making changes (including cancelling) a licence or policy is fairly standard practice now. I know house, car and boat insurers all do it and although it may be part of their business, if staff didn't have to make changes including cancellations, they could be doing something else or may not even be needed at all. 

 

It is, and it's a swizz. 

 

 

[Jimbobs]

I assume there’s also a ‘deterrent’ aspect to the cancellation fee. 
Otherwise there would be nothing to discourage someone who needed a 6 month licence from buying the cheaper-per-month annual licence and then cancelling after 6 months. 

 

You may consider it unfair, but it’s certainly not fraud if it’s stated up-front in the Ts & Cs…
 

 

[Higgs]

9 minutes ago, Jimbobs said:

I assume there’s also a ‘deterrent’ aspect to the cancellation fee. 
Otherwise there would be nothing to discourage someone who needed a 6 month licence from buying the cheaper-per-month annual licence and then cancelling after 6 months. 

 

You may consider it unfair, but it’s certainly not fraud if it’s stated up-front in the Ts & Cs…
 

 

 

I believe you have to inform CRT, when you no longer own the vessel. This could be at any point in the licence run. The licence is not transferable. The boat maybe moved to another waterway. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Higgs

[Slow and Steady]

 

Do we get charged the admin fee when a licence is cancelled due to the boat changing hands? I don't remember being charged but that doesn't mean I wasn't.

I do remember being rebated for the whole month in which it was sold and the new owner not being charged for that month so in effect between us we got a free month. Also I wasn't charged for the part month on my new boat. So, even if there was an admin fee it was more than covered by that free month.

[Higgs]

12 minutes ago, Slow and Steady said:

 

Do we get charged the admin fee when a licence is cancelled due to the boat changing hands? I don't remember being charged but that doesn't mean I wasn't.

I do remember being rebated for the whole month in which it was sold and the new owner not being charged for that month so in effect between us we got a free month. Also I wasn't charged for the part month on my new boat. So, even if there was an admin fee it was more than covered by that free month.

 

In your account, there was a compensatory element. The principle of admin charges should be a factor of any business, in its estimation of running costs, as is labour and ink. I am a member of the AA, they send me quite a bit of junk mail. They soak up the cost of that in their running costs. These junk mails arrive, free of admin charges. It is not an opportunity to slip in a charge for the time taken to work the miracle of advertising. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Higgs

[Slow and Steady]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

In your account, there was a compensatory element. The principle of admin charges should be a factor of any business, in its estimation of running costs, as is labour and ink. I am a member of the AA, they send me quite a bit of junk mail. They soak up the cost of that in their running costs. These junk mails arrive, free of admin charges. 

 

 

Being a natural cynic, I assumed that when CRT changed the rules such that a licence couldn't be passed on with the boat, that they would charge a whole month for any part month (like car tax) and also refuse to rebate any part month which would gain them a £month extra income every time a boat changed hands. I was quite surprised to find it was the opposite.

 

I agree with your view that admin charges for totally foreseeable events like this are a indefensible con - no argument there.

 

[Laurie Booth]

21 hours ago, one of the hidden said:

Over the last 12 months or so, this is what Canal & Rivers Trust have mis-managed, within 100 metres of where I now live:

 

POINT 1: For some reason, only known to CaRT Management, since last November, they have been allowing some of their ground workers, to use commercial fleet vehicles for commuting, to and from home, to their local yard at Etruria Locks, which I might add, is only a quarter of a mile away (quicker to walk!). I complained to CaRT about this, initially, as a complaint about inconsiderate parking. The blocks of apartments where I now live are leasehold, and oversized commercial vehicles are not allowed to be parked here. The next I heard from CaRT, was an early evening telephone call, from the driver of the vehicle, who was drunk, threatening to destroy my livelyhood! I contacted CaRT again, to complain about this, and a local Ground Works Manager telephoned me, to say that they could not take any diseplinary action, because the driver was not at work when he made his threat! I didn't contact the Police about this incident, as it may have only enflamed matters!

 

 

POINT 2: Below is a photo of a boat that was reported to CaRT, last December (2020), by myself and countless others, as it had overstayed its 2 week allowance, & was also moored to a Lock Landing. It sank just before Christmas 2021 and remains in-situ...

 

 

To Conclude:

During my 5 years as a live-a-board boater, the only dealings I had with CaRT, was when I occasionally overstayed, "at a place" by a week, due to bad winter weather (harassment) and when I sold my boat, they took a £30 admin charge (fraud), to refund the remainder of my licence. Funny how CaRT only ever seem to take any action, when it is from the comfort of their centrally heated offices, and when any real problems arise, especially with their own employees, they turn a blind eye. CaRT: Corrupt As Ever, Just Like The Government, They Were Spawned From!!

I wonder what would happen if the tyres become flat ?

21 hours ago, one of the hidden said:

Over the last 12 months or so, this is what Canal & Rivers Trust have mis-managed, within 100 metres of where I now live:

 

POINT 1: For some reason, only known to CaRT Management, since last November, they have been allowing some of their ground workers, to use commercial fleet vehicles for commuting, to and from home, to their local yard at Etruria Locks, which I might add, is only a quarter of a mile away (quicker to walk!). I complained to CaRT about this, initially, as a complaint about inconsiderate parking. The blocks of apartments where I now live are leasehold, and oversized commercial vehicles are not allowed to be parked here. The next I heard from CaRT, was an early evening telephone call, from the driver of the vehicle, who was drunk, threatening to destroy my livelyhood! I contacted CaRT again, to complain about this, and a local Ground Works Manager telephoned me, to say that they could not take any diseplinary action, because the driver was not at work when he made his threat! I didn't contact the Police about this incident, as it may have only enflamed matters!

 

 

POINT 2: Below is a photo of a boat that was reported to CaRT, last December (2020), by myself and countless others, as it had overstayed its 2 week allowance, & was also moored to a Lock Landing. It sank just before Christmas 2021 and remains in-situ...

 

 

To Conclude:

During my 5 years as a live-a-board boater, the only dealings I had with CaRT, was when I occasionally overstayed, "at a place" by a week, due to bad winter weather (harassment) and when I sold my boat, they took a £30 admin charge (fraud), to refund the remainder of my licence. Funny how CaRT only ever seem to take any action, when it is from the comfort of their centrally heated offices, and when any real problems arise, especially with their own employees, they turn a blind eye. CaRT: Corrupt As Ever, Just Like The Government, They Were Spawned From!!

I wonder what would happen if the tyres become flat ?

Van's tyres, not the boat's

:)

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, john.k said:

Where a servant operates a motor vehicle belonging to his master in a manner consistent with instructions given by the master,then the master is liable for any damages .

Did his master tell him to park it like that?

[Chagall]

1 hour ago, Laurie Booth said:

I wonder what would happen if the tyres become flat ?

I think one of the hidden might suddenly become visible and at the A&E.  🤔

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Chagall
punctuation

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

But admin is not some extracurricular activity, as gardening isn't to a gardener's work. 

 

 

 

 

But it is both reasonable and normal to set charges such as this based on average rather than marginal costs. Doing the latter might be what you want but is a great recipe for going bust longer term. If the business model changes (or rather when not if) then it is quite possible for items charged out on a marginal basis to become a larger part of the overall mix and therefore need to carry their full share of overheads. Business that have tired building anew business based on marginal costs have often bit the dust within a surprisingly short time.

2 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

 

Do we get charged the admin fee when a licence is cancelled due to the boat changing hands? I don't remember being charged but that doesn't mean I wasn't.

I do remember being rebated for the whole month in which it was sold and the new owner not being charged for that month so in effect between us we got a free month. Also I wasn't charged for the part month on my new boat. So, even if there was an admin fee it was more than covered by that free month.

Depends on when  your experience happened as the current non-transferable arrangement is only quite recent (two years?)

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

In your account, there was a compensatory element. The principle of admin charges should be a factor of any business, in its estimation of running costs, as is labour and ink. I am a member of the AA, they send me quite a bit of junk mail. They soak up the cost of that in their running costs. These junk mails arrive, free of admin charges. It is not an opportunity to slip in a charge for the time taken to work the miracle of advertising. 

 

 

That is entirely not comparable because at no stage did you contract with the AA to send you junk mail (at least supposing it was not hidden in some T&Cs!) 

 

More significantly, if such costs were rolled up into the licence fee then all boaters would be paying part of what is to you a specific benefit. I would have thought that you would have felt that a more important matter, given your views on marina charges!

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Slow and Steady said:

Being a natural cynic, I assumed that when CRT changed the rules such that a licence couldn't be passed on with the boat, that they would charge a whole month for any part month (like car tax) and also refuse to rebate any part month which would gain them a £month extra income every time a boat changed hands. I was quite surprised to find it was the opposite.

 

I agree with your view that admin charges for totally foreseeable events like this are a indefensible con - no argument there.

 

I think it is common ground that the admin costs will be charged somehow. The only question who pays? It would be unreasonable to charge a licence fee and then separately an admin fee for it (like theatre tickets - but that is also unreasonable, if legal) but a refund is not a general but a specific matter and the cost should be borne by the beneficiary.

 

In any business it is always a matter of choosing when to roll up overheads and when to charge specifically and it will depend on the market and the business's view of what is best for their business.

 

As is always the case (unless we are taking about a basic necessity or a monopoly) it is not up to the customer to decide on the business model but they are free to take themselves elsewhere (subject to an admin fee, of course!)

[LadyG]

4 hours ago, john.k said:

 a couple of years I had a building contract fall thru at the last minute.....anyhoo,one of the conditions was to open a joint bank account for both parties ......when the deal fell thru,the bank charged me $100 for the account facility.

Standard practice, I don't understand why folks complain, you buy a year's licence, then cancel, so so someone has to sort out your problem, it costs money, I dont expect to pay for time spent on other people's change of heart. 

Ditto any bank account, obviously banks are in a better position to charge than a small business, but you won't find many small busineses giving you credit these days. 

I did a business plan for two guys in a set of flats, seems they expected me to do it for nothing, obviously, I expected they had already had agreement from the other residents, just chancers. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by LadyG

[Higgs]

25 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

That is entirely not comparable because at no stage did you contract with the AA to send you junk mail (at least supposing it was not hidden in some T&Cs!) 

 

More significantly, if such costs were rolled up into the licence fee then all boaters would be paying part of what is to you a specific benefit. I would have thought that you would have felt that a more important matter, given your views on marina charges!

 

Admin is time, labour and materials. If someone gives me a price for a job, that job cost (bill) should come with admin accounted for, as should any part of the job. To charge for admin on top would be to claim the admin cost twice; and for it not to be in the original cost, the original cost quoted would be an inaccurate (incomplete) costing of the  job in the first place. And notification of admin being an extra should be given. 

 

Refunds are given as part of the service. Not an unprecedented act. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Higgs

[LadyG]

14 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Admin is time, labour and materials. If someone gives me a price for a job, that job cost (bill) should come with admin accounted for, as should any part of the job. To charge for admin on top would be to claim the admin cost twice; and for it not to be in the original cost, the original cost quoted would be an inaccurate (not complete) costing of the  job in the first place. And notification of admin being an extra should be given. 

 

 

 

 

Costing a job is generally materials plus labour, if, as many do, you change the specifications after the contract is agreed you pay more. 

I had a customer for two years when I was gardening, he got two hours per fortnight, no price increase, when he asked for extra work to be done he got charged extra, I think it was about a tenner, not happy, well what do you do? 

I had another who asked to pay wholesale prices for fertiliser for lawn, what do you say, I don't get 'wholesale prices', she also complained I charged her more per hour than the man next door, the man next door made me lunch when I was there, should I have charged him for my time eating his sandwiches? I was only too glad to have a good reason to stop going, she did all the easy gardening, and had me do all the very hard work. She was well heeled, needless to say never worked a day after she married well, from her point of view. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by LadyG

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

Costing a job is generally materials plus labour, if, as many do, you change the specifications after the contract is agreed you pay more. 

I had a customer for two years when I was gardening, he got two hours per fortnight, no price increase, when he asked for extra work to be done he got charged extra, I think it was about a tenner, not happy, well what do you do? 

I had another who asked to pay wholesale prices for fertiliser for lawn, what do you say, she also compplained I charged her more per hour than the man next door, the man next door made me lunch when I was there, should I have charged him for my time eating his sandwiches? I was only too glad to have a good reason to stop going, she did all the easy gardening, and had me do all the very hard work. 

 

I don't think admin is an extra. What business hasn't got admin at some level. Is admin an activity that stops the employee sitting for 8hrs looking at the ceiling, wondering why they are in an office marked admin. It's the activity for which they go to work and get paid, to use all that equipment. A business is set up and prepared for admin work.