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Are Narrowboats getting uglier?


PD1964

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Didn't Dan make one?

Yes, and IIRC he was very happy with it. But AFAIK all the ones people on CWDF (and most other references) have tried were based on Schilling's original design/patent, which was aimed at getting better steering at low angles of attack (up to 30 deg or so) while keeping drag down, so for higher-speed ships -- and it did this very successfully.

 

The later design/patent that I'm using is designed to not only give high lift (with a bit more high-speed drag, which doesn't matter) but also to maintain this up to very high rudder angles, especially for lower-speed manoeuvring -- all of which is exactly what a narrowboat needs... 🙂

 

Tim is quite happy to build it so long as I paid for the extra cost, which I'm willing to do if it means I end up with a boat which handles better, especially for tight turns/winding. I'll report back next year when it gets tried out in anger... 😉

 

 

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

bow.jpg

Shell.jpg

 

And there you see the difference between a shell from a builder at the good end of the middle market, and one from the top end.

No rivets on either, but the second boat has hull plates bent round to lie against the side of the stem post, as was necessary with its riveted predecessors, so that it could all be riveted together.

The biggest problem with the boat in the top picture is that some one has cut a great big hole in it below where the water line will be. 😀

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8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The biggest problem with the boat in the top picture is that some one has cut a great big hole in it below where the water line will be. 😀

 

That's the torpedo tube for permanently silencing the spurious "slow down!"-ers... 😉

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Yes, I did indeed design and fit a Schilling Rudder to our boat Emily Anne, using plates formed for me by forum member Yamanx 15 years ago.

 

I also wrote the majority of the Wiki page, and the CAD image of a rudder, is our rudder. although the one of a barge with a rudder is similar but not ours.

 

We have been very happy with it.

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1 hour ago, Loddon said:

In that top picture the boat has really been hit with the ugly stick. It absolutely shows how many modern builders just build with no finesse at all.

The lower picture is very like the hull of Loddon which was built by using separate pieces of steel for each part of the curve.

Boats with decent curves go through the water better and produce less wash😉

 

2012-07-24 15.11.24.jpg

Nice 

But no hole? 🧐

 

I had a boat come around this bend here today with the help of their bow thruster. 😉

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2 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Nice 

But no hole? 🧐

 

I had a boat come around this bend here today with the help of their bow thruster. 😉

First time I steered a Narrowboat fitted with a bowthruster I thought that's handy, I will use it to help me turn at Napton Junction, big mistake, the effect was minimal 

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12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

First time I steered a Narrowboat fitted with a bowthruster I thought that's handy, I will use it to help me turn at Napton Junction, big mistake, the effect was minimal 

I kid you not, I have watched boats use one to turn at Tixhall. 
 

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17 hours ago, IanD said:

Tim also told me that Jonathan is now spending more time doing other stuff like fitouts as well as hull builds, which might explain the recent company changes. Tim's only interested in the bare metal, and from what I saw he and his team are *very* good at it... 😉

 

Ricky said Tim's also more interested in doing anything "non-standard", like the slow-speed-high-angle-optimised Schilling rudder I found the patent for and will be trying out...

 

schilling_labelled.jpg

 

The dims above are not far from what we used. 

 

Our rudder is taller as we have a 26" prop, so maybe 700mm tall. Length likely around 600mm, which could be longer, but was constrained by the existing rudder/hull.

The bulbous section must be very close to the 100mm you have spec'd, maybe 85-90 but maybe 100. Final width of the flare is greater, maybe as much as 60mm overall. 

I also used the fore-aft proportions as per typed for the wiki article, 1x 5th to max width, 2x 5th tapering, 1x 5th straight, 1x 5th flared. It was all I had to go on! 

 

 

Daniel

 

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5 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I kid you not, I have watched boats use one to turn at Tixhall. 
 

We have seen boats using them to stay in a straight line, on a straight canal. No corners involved :rolleyes:

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Spotted a widebeam yesterday who had just cleared the marina entrance, their bowthruster had conked out and were pulling it back into the marina on lines.

 

Not sure if it was just to fix it or if they literally can't steer the boat without it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The biggest problem with the boat in the top picture is that some one has cut a great big hole in it below where the water line will be. 😀

It's alright. There is a circle of steel on the floor which looks to be the right size to fill the hole.

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4 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

Is that the bow of your boat?

I'm guessing it's the "Goliath" I saw recently around Glascote,  what's the history of the hull?  

Don’t know a lot about it. 
Dates to the 1870’s

I believe it would have been an early Bantock with a wooden bottom. 

Much later used as part of the Matty fleet. 

In the 1980’s Black Country boats used the front half to make a leisure boat. One of Boughy’s boats. 

That’s pretty much the limit of my knowledge, the BCN number is long gone. 
 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

A typical narrowboat flat-plate rudder works badly at high angles, the flow separates from it and becomes turbulent and a lot of the lift (side thrust) disappears -- it's why pushing them hard over doesn't really work.

 

This particular Schilling rudder is designed to carry on giving lift all the way over to full deflection (75 degrees), at which point there is a strong side thrust but no forward thrust at all -- it acts like a stern thruster. It also means you can get more steering effect with a shorter (by about 200mm) rudder, so it doesn't stick out past the stern as far -- which is handy if you want to be able to take a 60' boat through short locks like on the C&H.

 

They're not used on narrowboats because (mostly) nobody cares about this, they just put up with a "normal" rudder because that's what narrowboats have.

Why don’t you just get a stern thruster fitted if your that bothered about steerage angles and tight turns as should spin on it’s centre(in theory) if used in with the bow thruster?

 

 All of their rudders tuck under the stern, I’ve never seen any rudder stops to prevent this. With the large plate on the bottom this may cause more snagging issues then a conventional blade rudder????

 

  There not used on Narrowboats because the standard blade design is fit for purpose and no one is bothered about spending an extra £1k for a fancy un-necessary add on. 


 Below a TT shell, bow thruster, stern thruster, normal blade design rudder.

 

4AD1F5C3-D221-474A-8318-7258CAEE4F52.jpeg.da7b128638551fc3f43380b8d2c7666f.jpeg


E36C98BE-75FE-4AC4-85D8-DA78DF16009E.jpeg.9752f6fbc52fe90522d8a83ab7b9eb6d.jpeg
 

7A206856-A9F0-48EE-B980-ED248CC52763.jpeg.7df96e8ef9cc500f6060bacbc086b83a.jpeg

 

009CB513-B464-42C3-AFF7-597B0F970357.jpeg.7f880b3613adf1cff1a50a1f91040710.jpeg

Edited by PD1964
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3 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Why don’t you just get a stern thruster fitted if your that bothered about steerage angles and tight turns as should spin on it’s centre(in theory) if used in with the bow thruster?

 

 All of their rudders tuck under the stern, I’ve never seen any rudder stops to prevent this. With the large plate on the bottom this may cause more snagging issues then a conventional blade rudder????

 

  There not used on Narrowboats because the standard blade design is fit for purpose and no one is bothered about spending an extra £1k for a fancy un-necessary add on. 


 Below a TT shell, bow thruster, stern thruster, normal blade design rudder.

 

4AD1F5C3-D221-474A-8318-7258CAEE4F52.jpeg.da7b128638551fc3f43380b8d2c7666f.jpeg


E36C98BE-75FE-4AC4-85D8-DA78DF16009E.jpeg.9752f6fbc52fe90522d8a83ab7b9eb6d.jpeg
 

7A206856-A9F0-48EE-B980-ED248CC52763.jpeg.7df96e8ef9cc500f6060bacbc086b83a.jpeg

 

009CB513-B464-42C3-AFF7-597B0F970357.jpeg.7f880b3613adf1cff1a50a1f91040710.jpeg

 

Thanks, but I know exactly how flat plate rudders look and also how ineffective they are when trying to turn tightly or wind, I've steered lots of them over the years.

 

A stern thruster won't easily fit with everything else tucked into the swim (motor/frame/bearings/batteries), and costs 3x as much as the Schilling rudder -- so remind me again, why should I fit one?

 

 Like I said, if you don't like it don't fit one -- but don't disparage other people because they have different -- possibly equally valid -- opinions to you 😉

 

If it doesn't work as well as I expect -- and other people have reported -- then at least I'll have tried it...

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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Thanks, but I know exactly how flat plate rudders look and also how ineffective they are when trying to turn tightly or wind, I've steered lots of them over the years.

 

A stern thruster won't easily fit with everything else tucked into the swim (motor/frame/bearings/batteries), and costs 3x as much as the Schilling rudder -- so remind me again, why should I fit one?

 

 Like I said, if you don't like it don't fit one -- but don't disparage other people because they have different -- possibly equally valid -- opinions to you 😉

 

If it doesn't work as well as I expect -- and other people have reported -- then at least I'll have tried it...

And remember it’s a discussion forum.

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2 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

And remember it’s a discussion forum.

I do, which is why I try not to throw insults at other people's choices when the difference is fundamentally opinion or choice, not facts... 😉

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29 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Don’t know a lot about it. 
Dates to the 1870’s

I believe it would have been an early Bantock with a wooden bottom. 

Much later used as part of the Matty fleet. 

In the 1980’s Black Country boats used the front half to make a leisure boat. One of Boughy’s boats. 

That’s pretty much the limit of my knowledge, the BCN number is long gone. 
 

 

Sounds about right.  Very similar to the bow of St Tudno that I briefly owned,  early Bantock with the stepped footings for a plank up the side.

 

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4 minutes ago, IanD said:

I do, which is why I try not to throw insults at other people's choices when the difference is fundamentally opinion or choice, not facts... 😉

 I’ve never insulted you, I’ve just questioned the need for such a rudder on the canals, yours and maybe  a couple of others will be the only narrowboats with then, so that tells me there’s not a massive advantage in having one, or they would be industry standard fit.

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3 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

Sounds about right.  Very similar to the bow of St Tudno that I briefly owned,  early Bantock with the stepped footings for a plank up the side.

 

That’s interesting, have you any photos?

Mine are cut at the knees. 
And the old iron has a row of holes on the bottom edge, which is what the original (1980’s) over plating covered up. 
I’ll PM a couple of photos rather than hijack this thread. 

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10 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 I’ve never insulted you, I’ve just questioned the need for such a rudder on the canals, yours and maybe  a couple of others will be the only narrowboats with then, so that tells me there’s not a massive advantage in having one, or they would be industry standard fit.

 

There is a significant advantage according to those few who have fitted them; like many other boat add-ons (lithium batteries, bow thrusters) they cost money, and a large part (the majority?) of UK boat owners have other things to spend this on that are more important to them. Most people wouldn't ever have heard of them or ever have considered fitting one -- this doesn't mean they don't work (the evidence says they do), but does explain why not many boats have them fitted, and certainly why they're not "industry standard".

Edited by IanD
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4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

A typical narrowboat flat-plate rudder works badly at high angles, the flow separates from it and becomes turbulent and a lot of the lift (side thrust) disappears -- it's why pushing them hard over doesn't really work.

 

 

 

 

I think you're doing the right thing by modifying the standard design at this stage.

I don't know why exactly but TT/JW rudders just don't seem to work efficiently when manoeuvring at slow speed. 

It might be the amount of balance designed in, you can steer with one finger quite easily,  or just the basic spacing of prop/rudder blade.

You certainly don't get much "thrutch" coming out where you need it.

 

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