sunny Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 1 hour ago, MtB said: I think licenses should be put up to £5,000 a year per boat as that is broadly what the canal system needs spending on it to keep it working. The root problem is a serious disconnect between the huge cost of maintaining the canals and trivial sums CRT charge boaters pay to use them. Says mr money bags 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said: It is little wonder that you are alone, try being sociable outside the pubs, drinking less and growing up. I like a drink as much as many, I cannot drink in pubs though because they are full of lonely idiots who have low social standards. it’s a bit like having an agony aunt, Thanks I will take your advice. I am saved !! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy D'arth Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Goliath said: it’s a bit like having an agony aunt, Thanks I will take your advice. I am saved !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmr Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 Boaters should pay more, or at least some should. If you can afford to life in luxury on a brand new £200k widebeam and rent your house out then you should pay more. Liveaboards should pay a bit more, we are getting a bargain, but we should certainly not pay the full cost of maintaining the system. The NHS, police, fire service, schools and Motorways are all paid for collectively rather than only by those who need them. The railway analogy is a good one. And CRT have been intentionally reducing the money they get from boating (selling off BWML etc) and boaters can not be expected to pay for bad CRT policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 Are you saying means tested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 9 minutes ago, dmr said: Boaters should pay more, or at least some should. I reckon there's a good case to be made for steel boats paying more. GRP or wooden boats do a lot less damage to concrete or stonework when they crash into it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 Alcoholics alone will never afford to pay for the system. We need support. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 13 minutes ago, dmr said: Liveaboards should pay a bit more, we are getting a bargain, but we should certainly not pay the full cost of maintaining the system. The NHS, police, fire service, schools and Motorways are all paid for collectively rather than only by those who need them. A few thoughts. 1. Of you examples with the exception of schools everybody has the possibility of needing the NHS, police fire service and motorways (for the ambulance to get from place to place even if not for personal travel) so paying collectively. 2. Not really part of this argument but a number of things are paid for collectively on a sliding scale - rates for example. 3. Unless I have missed it nobody has suggested liveaboards pay the full cost of maintaining the system merely the same licence as everybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) There is no way that CRT can make a profit or even break even. They could try to charge waterside pubs, shops boatbuilders etc. a hefty sum but but they won't get far, If I owned a house with a view of a bit of canal that added, say, £10,000 to its value CRT can't have any of it so simple accounting doesn't work. Canals are 'heritage' and making them increasingly exclusive won't work. Heritage railways turn over a lot of money, places like Pickering get a lot of money fro their railway but a ticket would cost probably £2 - £300 to cover costs. It would go bust in a month without volunteers and so on. Simple profit and loss just cannot cover the whole complex web. Anyway, there are people in suits in CRT working out just how much they can push prices up before people leave and the 'tax' take starts to come down and I reckon that a mention of 'about 5k' would make their hair go white with shock. Edited September 29, 2021 by Bee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 It is not so many years ago that BW / C&RT had a consultation / proposals re licence charges. Long story short : A 'baseline' licence charge (based on a 12m+ boat) would be introduced and any boat deviating from the 'standard' would have a multiplier applied to it. so for example a boat operating on non-connected waterways would have a muliplier of 0.5, whilst a CC / Liveabord would have a multiplier of 2.5. If the base licence fee was £1000, then the CCer would pay £2500 and the non-connected waterways boat would pay £500 It seemed to me to be a fairer system based on 'the user pays'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 I don’t think they are ‘allowed’ to make a profit. but they are expected to break even. and that’s where their highly paid magician comes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 4 minutes ago, Goliath said: and that’s where their highly paid magician comes in. And their gardener for the money trees (That Sunak chap is good at them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 Scum! sorry am I in the wrong meeting? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, Goliath said: I don’t think they are ‘allowed’ to make a profit. Yes they are, and their articles of association even allow them to set aside profits towards future expenditure or reserves. or even to invest in property (hence the pub chain, shopping centre etc etc that they bought) : 3.15 set aside funds for special purposes or as reserves against future expenditure. 3.16 invest the Trust’s money not immediately required for its objects in or upon any investments, securities, or property. You may find reading the paperwork that resulted in the formation of C&RT educational. Their Articles of Association is a 42 page document and lists what they can and cannot do, and their aims and objectives. The Grant Agreement between DEFRA and C&RT (47 pages) outlining C&RTS KPIs and how the grant will be taken away from them if they fail to achieve the KPIs. The Trust Settlement (24 pages) detailing what BW were handing over to C&RT and what C&RT was allowed to do with it, and not do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty40s Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 18 minutes ago, Bee said: And their gardener for the money trees (That Sunak chap is good at them) I've got a Gardner, but not a money tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 I suspect that if the cost went up to 3k half the boats would be gone in the first year, so the next year the license would double so another half would go! See where this is heading?😱 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 21 minutes ago, peterboat said: ............ see where this is heading?😱 No queues at locks, waterpoints or elsan stations, unlimited fully equiped visitors moorings, no dumpers or Cmers. Sounds like a life of bliss. (A Life of Bliss, a radio sitcom, was introduced by the BBC on the 29th of July, 1953, starring George Cole {Arthur Daley}). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 1 hour ago, sunny said: Says mr money bags I think Mike was tongue in cheek but the costs have always been too cheap for what boaters get, I always said it was a bargain. It costs more to be members of some poxy golf clubs than having a boat including 365 days useage, sewage disposal, rubbish disposal, potable water and a couple of thousand miles of waterways to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 Charities aren't allowed to make a profit (if they do, they call it a 'surplus'). But then CRT (contrary to popular opinion) isn't a charity. It's a charitable trust which is something else completely. The clue is in the name... 1 hour ago, Goliath said: I don’t think they are ‘allowed’ to make a profit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 1 hour ago, dmr said: Boaters should pay more, or at least some should. If you can afford to life in luxury on a brand new £200k widebeam and rent your house out then you should pay more. Liveaboards should pay a bit more, we are getting a bargain, but we should certainly not pay the full cost of maintaining the system. The NHS, police, fire service, schools and Motorways are all paid for collectively rather than only by those who need them. The railway analogy is a good one. And CRT have been intentionally reducing the money they get from boating (selling off BWML etc) and boaters can not be expected to pay for bad CRT policy. Wide beams already do pay more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 4 minutes ago, MtB said: Charities aren't allowed to make a profit (if they do, they call it a 'surplus'). But then CRT (contrary to popular opinion) isn't a charity. It's a charitable trust which is something else completely. The clue is in the name... Hence the Magicians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 Just now, F DRAYKE said: Wide beams already do pay more. Ever so slightly... And nothing like as much as they would if they were charged proportionally for the amount of canal they take up! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbeerbeerbeerbeer Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 21 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: I think Mike was tongue in cheek but the costs have always been too cheap for what boaters get, I always said it was a bargain. It costs more to be members of some poxy golf clubs than having a boat including 365 days useage, sewage disposal, rubbish disposal, potable water and a couple of thousand miles of waterways to use. The comparison is nonsense. To play golf I would have to wear me trousers but boating …? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Goliath said: Hence the Magicians Nothing magical about it. In a company the profit is available to be distributed amongst the shareholders. When a charity makes a 'profit', it is called a surplus because there are no shareholders entitled to a share of the profit, and the surplus therefore has to remain on the charity's balance sheet. Basic accountancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted September 29, 2021 Report Share Posted September 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, MtB said: Ever so slightly... And nothing like as much as they would if they were charged proportionally for the amount of canal they take up! Mine was a 20% add-on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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