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1 hour ago, Tanmim H said:

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What will be the  exact questions I need to ask regarding the ownership documents?

Ask to see the all the paperwork, essentially you need to know that the vendor is named on the last Bill of Sale.

This is as near as you can get to prove ownership. 

There may not be any Bills of Sale, or in the case of Whilton, they may say they don't have any documentation related to the previous sale of the boat. Not all boats will have Bills of Sale, anyway. 

So...... 

I would want to see a copy of the current boat licence, it must have one, that will have name and address of the person who paid for the licence, now you have to tie that in with the previous year's licence, which would indicate that the owner is bona fide. 

There is no real proof of ownership other than Bill of Sale, but there may be an invoice, a receipt, the owner may not want you to see the price he paid, but he'd can just photo the rest of the document. It should have his name and  previous owner's name, and usually address. It's all very lackadaisical in the boating world, but you don't need to go along with it! 

The Boat Safety Certificate should be available, this will also indicate ownership, or at least show that a Bill has been paid on the boat. I think they have the boat name and number, not sure about owners details. There should, usually be user manuals for the engine and other bits of equipment, it is normal to keep these on board. 

Edited by LadyG
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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

The buyer can walk away any time, they are doing the buying. 

Bill of Sale is a legal document transferring ownership of a boat, free of encombrances, if you don't have that you may be taking on any debts on that boat. 

Contract of sale,  I don't think I mentioned that here, but when I bought my boat the owner appointed an agent to hold his money, and hand over the keys. I documented this. The deposit was paid on my terms, the seller did not need to agree, he could find another buyer and I would find another boat. 

 

 

Somertimes a little knowledge is dangerous, and in your case, never more so.

 

Telling the OP to use her own bill of sale is downright misleading.

You seem to go out of your way to confuse people with totally incorrect information - not only the BoS issues.

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Would any broker allow you to use your own bill of sale when they sell you a boat?

 

 

If it wasn't for the liklehood of the OP being made to look foolish I'd give up.

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28 minutes ago, MrsM said:

With ref to above I think Whilton had told the OP that only BSS necessary work would be done. If it and potentially other  issues are flagged as significant but the vendor is not prepared to get them done, or reduce the price, then I am concerned about her ability to reject the boat and recover her deposit. 

Yes, she can reject the boat, but getting the cash back is a different matter, if boat proves to be a seive, and she has to walk away, ask the surveyor to talk to Whilton, he can only say no, but he has more clout than a one off person, ( I was tempted to say, young naive type female). She is still a potential purchaser even if this boat is a lemon, they will have other boats, and OP (original poster) still has her capital! 

Edited by LadyG
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23 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I would want to see a copy of the current boat licence, it must have one,

 

 

Boats in Whilton marina are not required to have a licence - the boat I looked at had not been licenced for over 5 years.

 

Please check you facts.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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51 minutes ago, MrsM said:

With ref to above I think Whilton had told the OP that only BSS necessary work would be done. If it and potentially other  issues are flagged as significant but the vendor is not prepared to get them done, or reduce the price, then I am concerned about her ability to reject the boat and recover her deposit. 

I bought a boat from Whilton's sister marina in the last few months (owned by them, so all the work was done at their cost). Different people, but same rules and budget.

 I got a new drive plate and a newly refurbished gearbox (completely different unit), neither of which are anything to do with BSS, 

 

The prepuchase contract (assuming identical to mine) says deposit is fully refundable if vendor won't remedy or reduce price to account for BSS or "insurable defects". "Insurable defects" isn't defined, but if it's roof needs replating to protect its structural integrity I think they'd expect to do the work. Same as they certainly won't if its just roof needs a paint. 

 

I'd assume any surveyor who works in Northamptonshire has worked for Whilton customers before and know how to word a survey to get their attention if the problem is actually a significant one anyway. And a surveyor ought to be willing to have a chat about that beforehand

Edited by enigmatic
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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Obviously, I can't speak for any broker, if you want to buy a boat you should demand a Bill of Sale, with other paperwork which mirrors the agreement. If they won't give you one you can walk away, otherwise accept its a risk, and hope that a previous owner, or some bailiffs don't turn up and demand the return of the boat. 

In the instance case of my dealing with New and not New brokers, the boat was subject to debt, they were not interested. Not even when I was asked to pay some random person, and not themselves. The boat was still offered for sale on their website after I told them.

Essentially the keeper of the boat did not own the boat outright, and he was not going to have any money paid to the broker.

Anyone can call themselves a broker, a few have proper legal procedures, but you can be sure they are there to protect themselves, good brokers have your money ring fenced. When I handed over my cash, it was not ring fenced, so I wrote up our agreement, in writing, and all parties had to sign. Much easier for me as I wrote the contract, in plain English, unambiguous. Yes the vendor was a bit surprised, but he had agreed the terms, all I did was confirm them in writing. It would not normally happen in a private transaction, but he appointd an agent because he was abroad at the time of the sale. 

The Bill of Sale was essentially a separate document, no mention of the agent because the sale is a transfer from  vendor to purchaser. 

So which broker did you buy through in the end?

 

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45 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

The prepuchase contract (assuming identical to mine) says deposit is fully refundable if vendor won't remedy or reduce price to account for BSS or "insurable defects". "Insurable defects" isn't defined, but if it's roof needs replating to protect its structural integrity I think they'd expect to do the work. Same as they certainly won't if its just roof needs a paint. 

That sounds reassuring. Hopefully the OP can add this to her list and ask them to clarify. Sounds like you had good service when you bought your boat. 

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7 hours ago, Tanmim H said:

I am thinking of looking for a place to moor in a Marin outside London for a while.

My son 8 so one child.

 

One option that may be both suitable and very affordable is a mooring run by a boat club, they are mostly very cheap compared to other options and secure. Another bonus would be the many enthusiasts who can generally offer good advice and help. They won't tolerate anyone living aboard beyond normal recreational use however. 

 Getting back to the original question on the corrosion, that is not something you would expect to see on a craft offered at that price. My advice would be to talk to a couple of reputable surveyors about the situation, including the fact that you have placed a deposit and the broker concerned and take their advice on how to proceed. 

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29 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

So which broker did you buy through in the end?

 

I bought privately, but because the owner was out of the country when the sale went through he appointed an agent who was very familiar with buying and selling boats. 

I wrote the contract according to the agreed method, and I also wrote the Bill of Sale. I think the agent countersigned the Bill of Sale on behalf of the vendor on the day, it was all documented, the vendor signed off the relevant documents before he went on holiday. 

 

Edited by LadyG
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10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I bought privately, but because the owner was out of the country when the sale went through he appointed an agent who was very familiar with buying and selling boats. 

I wrote the contract according to the agreed method, and I also wrote the Bill of Sale. I think the agent countersigned the Bill of Sale on behalf of the vendor on the day, it was all documented, the vendor signed off the relevant documents before he went on holiday. 

 

I wonder why the vendor went out of the country just prior to selling the boat to you?   Are you sure the agent was who he claimed to be, especially as you are not sure if the agent countersigned the bill of sale?   

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6 minutes ago, Chagall said:

I wonder why the vendor went out of the country just prior to selling the boat to you?  

 

If I was selling a boat to her, I'd leave the country as well.

 

Painfull !

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I bought privately, but because the owner was out of the country when the sale went through he appointed an agent who was very familiar with buying and selling boats. 

I wrote the contract according to the agreed method, and I also wrote the Bill of Sale. I think the agent countersigned the Bill of Sale on behalf of the vendor on the day, it was all documented, the vendor signed off the relevant documents before he went on holiday. 

 

So you didn't insist a broker used your bill of sale like you are suggesting others should do?

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

So you didn't insist a broker used your bill of sale like you are suggesting others should do?

 

Her Ladyship the Mistress of contradictory confusion. ..............................  really helpful for a newbie.     :banghead:

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On 06/04/2021 at 18:47, ditchcrawler said:

So you didn't insist a broker used your bill of sale like you are suggesting others should do?

If you must know every detail, and I think I have covered most detail, this was a private sale, the owner had no intention to use any Bill of Sale as far as I know. I prepared all the paperwork to mirror the actual transactions, 

It's a Bill of Sale of the vessel, its a standard form, you just put the details in a blank form. 

There is no benefit to a broker to prepare a Bill of Sale. It is a document transferring ownership of a vessel. 

 

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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On 06/04/2021 at 16:13, enigmatic said:

I bought a boat from Whilton's sister marina in the last few months (owned by them, so all the work was done at their cost). Different people, but same rules and budget.

 I got a new drive plate and a newly refurbished gearbox (completely different unit), neither of which are anything to do with BSS, 

 

The prepuchase contract (assuming identical to mine) says deposit is fully refundable if vendor won't remedy or reduce price to account for BSS or "insurable defects". "Insurable defects" isn't defined, but if it's roof needs replating to protect its structural integrity I think they'd expect to do the work. Same as they certainly won't if its just roof needs a paint. 

 

I'd assume any surveyor who works in Northamptonshire has worked for Whilton customers before and know how to word a survey to get their attention if the problem is actually a significant one anyway. And a surveyor ought to be willing to have a chat about that beforehand

Good to know someone else bought a boat from the Wilton's sister Marina.

You refurbished the gearbox and you got a new drive plate.

How much did you pay for that?

Did they do the work for you?

As you said it has nothing to do with BSS.

After the survey did you see a proof of all the work that got done on your boat?

 

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21 minutes ago, Tanmim H said:

Good to know someone else bought a boat from the Wilton's sister Marina.

You refurbished the gearbox and you got a new drive plate.

How much did you pay for that?

Did they do the work for you?

As you said it has nothing to do with BSS.

After the survey did you see a proof of all the work that got done on your boat?

 

The owner (in this case the marina) paid for the gearbox refurbishment, and a contractor working for them did the work. It was not BSS but was considered an "insurable defect" which is also mentioned in the Pre-purchase agreement. The surveyor said the gearbox was something he would expect them to fix (and that they would have looked at it when they bought it so wouldn't be surprised

They also did some other basic non-BSS things like repacking the stern gland and fitting a new drive belt to the engine at no charge

 

They were less keen on doing time-consuming non-critical stuff like fixing the broken wiring to the tunnel light (I got a little bit of help after politely arguing with them and taking the panels off for them)

 

The surveyor also suggested a couple of upgrades which I would have had to pay for, but I chose not to get them done (and they weren't that interested because they were busy)

 

Most of the work they had done was visible (also my surveyor went back to approve the BSS work)

 

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21 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

 

The owner (in this case the marina) paid for the gearbox refurbishment, and a contractor working for them did the work. It was not BSS but was considered an "insurable defect" which is also mentioned in the Pre-purchase agreement. The surveyor said the gearbox was something he would expect them to fix (and that they would have looked at it when they bought it so wouldn't be surprised

They also did some other basic non-BSS things like repacking the stern gland and fitting a new drive belt to the engine at no charge

 

They were less keen on doing time-consuming non-critical stuff like fixing the broken wiring to the tunnel light (I got a little bit of help after politely arguing with them and taking the panels off for them)

 

The surveyor also suggested a couple of upgrades which I would have had to pay for, but I chose not to get them done (and they weren't that interested because they were busy)

 

Most of the work they had done was visible (also my surveyor went back to approve the BSS work)

 

Very helpful to know this.

Thank you

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1 hour ago, haggis said:

I think we must be careful that we are not giving a "bum steer".

 

 

That's the technique I use when taking photographs whilst underway ...

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7 hours ago, haggis said:

I'm with you on this one Brian. I feel it is not helpful to tell new boaters what they must do without also saying on what experience the advice is based - having bought one narrow boat and sold none is hardly a wide experience of the  subject.  New people coming on here are looking  for  advice and they don't know who is experienced and who is not and I feel if  we offer advice or instructions it is only fair to the new comers that we say what our own experience is.

It is good to be helpful where we can but I think we must be careful that we are not giving a "bum steer".

 

Haggis

My experience, if you must know is forty years sailing, buying and selling several boats, horses, houses.

RYA Yachtmaster, B.A., PG graduate.

 

It is not misleading to say that proof of ownership is important.

It is not misleading to advise that a Bill of Sale is the only document that would stand up in court as proof of ownership, and that it is a document that transfers ownership free of encumbrances, because that is what it states.

 

Anyone can buy anything using any method they choose, I have not insisted, I have explained that a paper trail is important.

There is no reason not to ask for a Bill of Sale for this transaction, there is no reason for a genuine vendor to refuse to sign one,.

If Whilton provide a Bill of Sale on this transaction then the OP does not need to provide one, but she now knows a lot more about purchasing a boat than before. I have read all the posts on here, they all say the same thing. I don't think it is confusing the OP to advise her to find out who owns the boat, and to have this in writing.

Edited by LadyG
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7 hours ago, Tanmim H said:

Very helpful to know this.

Thank you

It's also important to note that the boat was owned by the Marina, which makes it a business sale, and that is very different from a non business transaction, even if it is bought via a broker.

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

My experience, if you must know is forty years sailing, buying and selling several boats, horses, houses.

RYA Yachtmaster, B.A., PG graduate.

 

 

I am aware of your vast experience of sea going boats and you have told us of the many jobs you have had in a wide variety of professions but I think you will agree that your narrowboat experience is limited to buying one boat. While some of your advice might be a preferable course of action it is not the only one yet you tend to be a bit dictatorial when you give advice. 

 

haggis

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22 minutes ago, haggis said:

I am aware of your vast experience of sea going boats and you have told us of the many jobs you have had in a wide variety of professions but I think you will agree that your narrowboat experience is limited to buying one boat. While some of your advice might be a preferable course of action it is not the only one yet you tend to be a bit dictatorial when you give advice. 

 

haggis

 

And of course there is a huge difference in 'paper trail' for a sea-going boat compared to a Canal-boat.

 

For example :

On my 'Lumpy-water' boat I have the original manufacturers Bill of sale to the 1st owner, I have the VAT paid certificate, I have the RCD compliance documentation, I have every Bill-of-sale made during its 'life', along with the original owners / instruction manuals.

It is the norm that 'ships papers' consist of all of the above.

 

On Canal boats you are lucky to get much more than a 'receipt' on the back of an envelope (private purchase) or an incorrectly completed BoS if purchased from a broker.

There are exceptions, there are an odd one or two CDO people (CDO is like OCD but better because the letters are in alphabetical order) on the canals who keep all documentation but it is not usual.

 

With canal boats it is always Caveat Emptor.

A buyer needs to take all the advice and help they can, at the end of the day, it may be one of their biggest (costliest) purchases and doing due diligence is seldom wasted.

Don't slavishly follow the advice of some random person on the internet, whose advice, whilst well intentioned, and maybe correct is only worth what you have paid for it.

 

A newbie can have no idea how correct the advice is, or what RELEVANT experience the person has. If several people are saying 'the same thing' it is a fair assumption that it is PROBABLY correct, but if one person alone is saying somethig different it is fair to assume it MAY be a load of Bull.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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