Painting outside of a narrow boat

[haggis]

Good post, Alan.

For kelpie (we are, I think the 4th owners in her short life)  for example, we have no bill of sale nor are there any from previous sales in the mass of paperwork on the boat. In fact, we have no receipt for the money we paid for the boat. However, we knew the boat and the previous owners but if we hadn't I am sure a few discreet enquiries would have established anything we wanted to know. Come to think about it, there was no bill of sale or receipt for our Sea Other, gamebird,   which we bought unseen but she came from her previous owner with a verbal guarantee from the manufacturer. 

I don't think I would recommend others to follow our route but I mention them just to show that there are other scenarios other than a paper trail. 

 

haggis 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

I am aware of your vast experience of sea going boats and you have told us of the many jobs you have had in a wide variety of professions but I think you will agree that your narrowboat experience is limited to buying one boat. While some of your advice might be a preferable course of action it is not the only one yet you tend to be a bit dictatorial when you give advice. 

 

haggis

I may come over as dictatorial, but I am trying to put it as simply as possible for someone who is buying their first boat for a significant sum of money and who does not understand the protocols. 

A marine vessel is a marine vessel, narrow or broad, yacht or motorboat, it matters not.

In my opinion, the best way is to do it with minimum risk, ie full transparency. 

If you have a different method, please feel free to post. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by LadyG

[MrsM]

I totally take on board that advice from someone with minimal experience such as myself needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, so to speak. I apologise to the OP and any other prospective buyers if I have painted an unrealistic picture of buying your first canal boat. I got involved in these particular threads because I was concerned that a decent but possibly naive and unsupported young buyer (no disrespect to the OP intended) might be at a disadvantage going into dealings with a wile secondhand boat salesman.

 

 

[LadyG]

44 minutes ago, haggis said:

Good post, Alan.

For kelpie (we are, I think the 4th owners in her short life)  for example, we have no bill of sale nor are there any from previous sales in the mass of paperwork on the boat. In fact, we have no receipt for the money we paid for the boat. However, we knew the boat and the previous owners but if we hadn't I am sure a few discreet enquiries would have established anything we wanted to know. Come to think about it, there was no bill of sale or receipt for our Sea Other, gamebird,   which we bought unseen but she came from her previous owner with a verbal guarantee from the manufacturer. 

I don't think I would recommend others to follow our route but I mention them just to show that there are other scenarios other than a paper trail. 

 

haggis 

I have bought and sold boats on the basis of a handshake, but I could not advise anyone to so do, especially nowadays. I have also been diddled, several times, and I could not advise anyone to do as I have done. The whole idea that you are dealing with people of integrity is out the window, it's caveat empetor. 

I hope OP ignores this interchange of views, it's irrelevant to the safe purchase of her boat. 

[LadyG]

On 06/04/2021 at 15:07, enigmatic said:

Whilton's Bill of Sale is very straightforward and shouldn't be a problem (assuming it's the same as Venetian's) and includes a line about "free from encumbrances"

I don't think we need to start confusing things by bringing up alternative agreements. 

 

@Tanmim H I presume they sent you their standard Pre Puchase Terms contract when you paid the deposit? 

 

This is the point, if you buy a boat which is owned by Whilton, the purchase comes under English Trading Laws. It must be fit for purpose. 

If the boat is not owned by Whilton, and is essentially a private sale, it does not come under Trading Standards.

Whilton may well have two different contracts, ie Pre Purchase Terms., one for their own boats, one for their brokerage boats. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by LadyG

[TheBiscuits]

16 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I am trying to put it as simply as possible for someone who is buying their first boat for a significant sum of money and who does not understand the protocols. 

 

That may be what you are trying to do, but isn't what you actually are doing.  You seem to be mixing valid points with utter tripe in varying proportions, which makes it difficult for the inexperienced to work out which is correct.

 

19 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I apologise to the OP and any other prospective buyers if I have painted an unrealistic picture of buying your first canal boat.

 

No need to apologise - "this is how it went for me" is perfectly valid and helpful.  It's when people make stuff up and insist it's how it always works even in very different circumstances that problems occur.

[haggis]

23 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I totally take on board that advice from someone with minimal experience such as myself needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, so to speak. I apologise to the OP and any other prospective buyers if I have painted an unrealistic picture of buying your first canal boat. I got involved in these particular threads because I was concerned that a decent but possibly naive and unsupported young buyer (no disrespect to the OP intended) might be at a disadvantage going into dealings with a wile secondhand boat salesman.

 

 

Worry not, Mrs M. I think where you have given advice you have also mentioned that you were basing it on a recent purchase of your first  narrowboat and that was very helpful, I am sure to the original poster.  Your experience being recent  is of interest to us all. We never stop learning!

 

haggis

[enigmatic]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

This is the point, if you buy a boat which is owned by Whilton, the purchase comes under English Trading Laws. It must be fit for purpose. 

If the boat is not owned by Whilton, and is essentially a private sale, it does not come under Trading Standards.

Whilton may well have two different contracts, ie Pre Purchase Terms., one for their own boats, one for their brokerage boats. 

This is true, and it would be a good idea for @Tanmim H to ask whether Whilton is the owner of the boat or just acting as a broker when she visits them if they have not already told her.

 

This is the relevant part of the terms I signed, FWIW. Note that there is provision for doing welding if needed

 

I imagine if Whilton is not the owner of the boat it is still in their interests to persuade the current owner to fund the work if it is what they consider an "Insurable defect" (especially since they probably collect the fee for doing the work). And likewise if it just needs a paint, then they won't

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, LadyG said:

This is the point, if you buy a boat which is owned by Whilton, the purchase comes under English Trading Laws. It must be fit for purpose. 

If the boat is not owned by Whilton, and is essentially a private sale, it does not come under Trading Standards.

Whilton may well have two different contracts, ie Pre Purchase Terms., one for their own boats, one for their brokerage boats. 

 

You have peviously made 'large' about the Bill Of Sale, and how you write your own, but you are now bringing different paperwork into the discussion (Terms and conditions of Purchase) which the OP has already agreed to by paying her deposit.

 

[doratheexplorer]

40 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

That may be what you are trying to do, but isn't what you actually are doing.  You seem to be mixing valid points with utter tripe in varying proportions, which makes it difficult for the inexperienced to work out which is correct.

 

 

 

Well put!  I thought I knew a bit about selling and buying boats (but not enough to advise the OP).  Reading through this thread has made my head hurt!  Lady G's posts in particular, sound like gobbledegook to me.  I feel sorry for Tanmim!  She only wanted to know about getting some rust dealt with!

 

It's a perennial problem with forums like this.  One simply doesn't know how authoritative others are, from:  Experienced professional ---> knowledgable amateur ---> total ignoramus who ought to know when to zip it, but just can't.

 

There are subjects I know a lot about, and will will happily give direct advice on.  There are other subject which I know a bit about, and will happily get involved in a discussion, while being happy to defer to others who may know more.  Then there are subjects where my knowledge is limited, and I'll tend to keep my mouth shut on those, but read the threads in hope of learning something.  This thread has taught me virtually nothing.

[Tanmim H]

29 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

This is true, and it would be a good idea for @Tanmim H to ask whether Whilton is the owner of the boat or just acting as a broker when she visits them if they have not already told her.

 

This is the relevant part of the terms I signed, FWIW. Note that there is provision for doing welding if needed

 

I imagine if Whilton is not the owner of the boat it is still in their interests to persuade the current owner to fund the work if it is what they consider an "Insurable defect" (especially since they probably collect the fee for doing the work). And likewise if it just needs a paint, then they won't

I was told by the Surveyor insurable defects' is only if the boat will sink and the rust on the roof don't fall under that.

I guess I have to look for someone who can do the job for me near Northampton.

Any recommendation will be appreciated guys.

All been so helpful here I learnt a lot.

[LadyG]

36 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Well put!  I thought I knew a bit about selling and buying boats (but not enough to advise the OP).  Reading through this thread has made my head hurt!  Lady G's posts in particular, sound like gobbledegook to me.  I feel sorry for Tanmim!  She only wanted to know about getting some rust dealt with!

 

It's a perennial problem with forums like this.  One simply doesn't know how authoritative others are, from:  Experienced professional ---> knowledgable amateur ---> total ignoramus who ought to know when to zip it, but just can't.

 

There are subjects I know a lot about, and will will happily give direct advice on.  There are other subject which I know a bit about, and will happily get involved in a discussion, while being happy to defer to others who may know more.  Then there are subjects where my knowledge is limited, and I'll tend to keep my mouth shut on those, but read the threads in hope of learning something.  This thread has taught me virtually nothing.

I'll clarify

OP wants to buy this boat and has paid a deposit.

She asks, essentially what paint to use on something that needs to be examined on site, it's unlikely to be a lick of paint. 

She is therefore fairly naive. 

Most people would have a survey. There are different types of survey. 

She is either buying a boat owned by Whilton, or this is essentially a private sale, where a broker is being paid a commission by the boat owner.  

With a private sale, essentially, the boat is 'sold as seen. 

With a business sale the boat has to be fit for purpose. 

The OP has still not told us who owns the boat, ie Whilton or a member of the public. 

 

Obviously any purchase involves risk, often, the bigger the purchase, the bigger the risk to the purchaser. 

Buying a boat is not like buying a new car from a main dealer, it is more like buying a secondhand car off a back street trader, but there is no V5 C, aka the log book. 

 

Of course most boat sales go through smoothly, the buyer sails off into the sunset and lives happily ever after. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by LadyG

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I'll clarify

OP wants to buy this boat and has paid a deposit.

She asks, essentially what paint to use on something that needs to be examined on site, it's unlikely to be a lick of paint. 

She is therefore fairly naive. 

Most people would have a survey. There are different types of survey. 

She is either buying a boat owned by Whilton, or this is essentially a private sale, where a broker is being paid by the boat owner. 

I know all this.  I'm still not sure what your point is though?  A boat like this is commonly owned by someone other than the broker, that's what a broker is.  If I were the OP and I liked this boat, I would get a quote for welding a new plate on the roof to repair the rusty patch and then use that to negotiate a lower sale price.  All the other stuff about Bills of Sale and who the licence holder is are just likely to cause confusion to the OP.  I'd never heard of a Bill of Sale relating to narrowboats until I joined this forum.  Whilton are a very well established broker so I doubt very much they'd want to get stuck in the middle of an ownership dispute.  The important thing for the OP to remember is that the broker works for the seller, but if you employ a surveyor, they work for you, so should give you good advice.  When I think of all the rusty old wrecks which change hands privately on just a handshake (or elbow bump), I can't help but think that this forum tends to make a a right old meal out of these things.

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I know all this.  I'm still not sure what your point is though?  A boat like this is commonly owned by someone other than the broker, that's what a broker is.  If I were the OP and I liked this boat, I would get a quote for welding a new plate on the roof to repair the rusty patch and then use that to negotiate a lower sale price.  All the other stuff about Bills of Sale and who the licence holder is are just likely to cause confusion to the OP.  I'd never heard of a Bill of Sale relating to narrowboats until I joined this forum.  Whilton are a very well established broker so I doubt very much they'd want to get stuck in the middle of an ownership dispute.  The important thing for the OP to remember is that the broker works for the seller, but if you employ a surveyor, they work for you, so should give you good advice.  When I think of all the rusty old wrecks which change hands privately on just a handshake (or elbow bump), I can't help but think that this forum tends to make a a right old meal out of these things.

 

I go along with much of that but remember this particular broker seems to have attracted more than its fair share of stories relating to sharp, if not downright illegal, practices. I feel it was important to let the OP know about the reputation and also point out other potential problems inferred from the sales bumph. Forewarned is forearmed and she is now far better informed.  I hope it all goes well with the OP and she ends up with a nice reliable boat but we will see.

[Chagall]

23 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I know all this.  I'm still not sure what your point is though?

I dont think many know what Ms G's point is, least of all herself. She has a tendency to recycle others valid points (nothing wrong with that) but then adds her own misunderstandings. Creates utter confusion!  

 

Thankfully the OP is going into the survey with full support from a trusted surveyor and others who have nobly offered time. That will hopefully answer many of her questions. 

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, Chagall said:

I dont think many know what Ms G's point is, least of all herself. She has a tendency to recycle others valid points (nothing wrong with that) but then adds her own misunderstandings. Creates utter confusion!  

 

Thankfully the OP is going into the survey with full support from a trusted surveyor and others who have nobly offered time. That will hopefully answer many of her questions. 

Ok so I've had a private message from LadyG going on about 'fit for purpose'.  Little does she know I actually worked in Trading Standards for a short while, and if she thinks that a visibly rusty roof on a second hand boat, which has been surveyed, could possibly lead to a successful claim under the consumer rights act due to being not 'fit for purpose', or would be of any interest at all to trading standards, then she's more off-kilter than she seems.  In the real world, the OP has no more come back on this boat no matter whether it's privately owned or owned by Whilton.  Get a survey done, act on the survey is the advice I'd give to the OP, all this other stuff is just guff!

 

Trading Standards might possibly take an interest if the boat was bought without a viewing, was described as having a steel hull, but in fact was made of cardboard.

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I go along with much of that but remember this particular broker seems to have attracted more than its fair share of stories relating to sharp, if not downright illegal, practices. I feel it was important to let the OP know about the reputation and also point out other potential problems inferred from the sales bumph. Forewarned is forearmed and she is now far better informed.  I hope it all goes well with the OP and she ends up with a nice reliable boat but we will see.

Hence my comments about getting a surveyor on your side.  Whilton, like all brokers, cannot be trusted to act on the buyers interest.  Having said that, if you search online for any company, you'll find reports that they're dodgy scumbags!

[LadyG]

I did not say that a rusty roof would cause the boat to be not fit for purpose. What I said, and have said repeatedly is that buying from a private seller it is "sold as seen"

Regardless of the waste of time that Trading Standards often are in practice, the boat, if sold by a busines should be "fit for pupose", and this makes business sellers far more cautious than private sellers.

[blackrose]

On 08/04/2021 at 15:52, LadyG said:

I did not say that a rusty roof would cause the boat to be not fit for purpose. What I said, and have said repeatedly is that buying from a private seller it is "sold as seen"

Regardless of the waste of time that Trading Standards often are in practice, the boat, if sold by a busines should be "fit for pupose", and this makes business sellers far more cautious than private sellers.

 

I'm afraid that's not true at all. In practice boats sold by brokers are also sold as seen unless a surveyor uncovers the problem and it's rectified, but that equally applies to private sales. There are plenty of well known brokers who sell boats that aren't fit for purpose and by the time the buyer finds out it's too late. I've seen boats sold with chipboard floors that have become waterlogged and needed to be ripped out requiring a full refit; boats where the broker fixed a rusty dump through pump out tank by putting a piece of ply on top with mastic and painting it black and then mounting the toilet on top of that, etc, etc. I'm afraid just as many unfit boats have been sold by brokers as by private sale.

[LadyG]

12 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I'm afraid that's not true at all. In practice boats sold by brokers are also sold as seen unless a surveyor uncovers the problem and it's rectified, but that equally applies to private sales. There are plenty of well known brokers who sell boats that aren't fit for purpose and by the time the buyer finds out it's too late. I've seen boats sold with chipboard floors that have become waterlogged and needed to be ripped out requiring a full refit; boats where the broker fixed a rusty dump through pump out tank by putting a piece of ply on top with mastic and painting it black and then mounting the toilet on top of that, etc, etc. I'm afraid just as many unfit boats have been sold by brokers as by private sale.

If you read my posts you would see that I have tried to define  a business sale eg, when a broker owns the boat, and a private sale where the boat is owned by Joe Public, WHETHER OR NOT THAT SALE IS VIA A BROKER.

Your point is exactly the point, there is nothing, in law, that makes buying from a broker who does  not own a boat any safer than from a private sale. 

[blackrose]

14 minutes ago, LadyG said:

If you read my posts you would see that I have tried to define  a business sale eg, when a broker owns the boat, and a private sale where the boat is owned by Joe Public, WHETHER OR NOT THAT SALE IS VIA A BROKER.

Your point is exactly the point, there is nothing, in law, that makes buying from a broker who does  not own a boat any safer than from a private sale. 

 

But that's NOT what you said in your previous post. You said:

 

"buying  from a private seller it is "sold as seen"

Regardless of the waste of time that Trading Standards often are in practice, the boat, if sold by a busines should be "fit for pupose", and this makes business sellers far more cautious than private sellers"

 

That's NOT the same point that I'm making, it's the opposite. 

 

And it really doesn't matter whether the broker owns the boat or is acting as a broker. You're just creating confusion by trying to draw some distinction there. Either way it's just as likely to be fit or unfit for purpose.

Edited April 11, 2021 by blackrose

[blackrose]

On 08/04/2021 at 12:06, Chagall said:

I dont think many know what Ms G's point is, least of all herself. She has a tendency to recycle others valid points (nothing wrong with that) but then adds her own misunderstandings. Creates utter confusion!  

 

 

Very true. Part of the problem is the certainty with which she states these misunderstandings.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Very true. Part of the problem is the certainty with which she states these misunderstandings.

 

 

And made even more confusing when it is apparently 'law' but never states which law, even saying that the boat the OP is viewing MUST have a licence, but her lack of knowledge is again showing as boats in Whilton are not subject to the requirement to be licenced.

 

It is often better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it !