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Cheap Filters - Why not use them ?


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Hi Everyone...

 

Just getting the parts list together to service the Canaline 42 on my boat.

 

I got the parts last year from Engine Plus who are the "recommended" supplier for Canaline  - according to my manual.

I got the recommended parts last year as it was my first time doing the service so I  was being extra cautious.

 

Plenty of people on here have recommended getting the filters from various other motor factors and online etc .... quite a few recommended Inlinefilters.co.uk.

 

Looking at the  fuel filter as an example ...

 

EnginePlus price is £25.11 Ex Vat

Inlinefilters price is  £9.07 Ex Vat for what they call an "equivalent" filter.

 

Ok - so my question is this ....

 

Is there any reason NOT to buy the cheap filter?  

 

I am one of these people who generally believes that you get what you pay for and don't have an issue spending money on the right stuff, but equally if these parts do exactly the same job why buy the expensive one?  

 

Are the cheap filters rubbish?  

 

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

BMP

 

 

 

 

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Its a good question. What is the base engine? Is it Isuzu?  My engine is a Beta so it has a Kubota engine as used in many small tractors and suchlike and I get the filters from a nearby agricultural suppliers. I expect you can get yours from an Isuzu (?) dealer cheaper than Engine plus price. I use a local car parts place for car filters and if I could get a cross reference I would probably use them for the boat engine. I don't use really cheap filters though, have a look on You Tube for rubbish oil filters, there is a difference in quality if you go very cheap.

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Nothing is certain you can just swing the odds in your favour.

 

The official part is very likely to be a good one but at a very inflated price and has been branded with the engine makers name but was purchased in from a filter factory that might be in China.

The cheapest filter might come from the same factory and be just as good, but maybe subject to a bit less quality control.

The big independent names like onlinefilters are likely supplying good filters.

The worse case would be getting a fake unit but these will be branded to look like proper filters so not easy to spot.

I would avoid real cheap eBay stuff unless it comes from a good known supplier who also sells on eBay.

 

............Dave

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1 minute ago, Bee said:

Its a good question. What is the base engine? Is it Isuzu?  My engine is a Beta so it has a Kubota engine as used in many small tractors and suchlike and I get the filters from a nearby agricultural suppliers. I expect you can get yours from an Isuzu (?) dealer cheaper than Engine plus price. I use a local car parts place for car filters and if I could get a cross reference I would probably use them for the boat engine. I don't use really cheap filters though, have a look on You Tube for rubbish oil filters, there is a difference in quality if you go very cheap.

It is Canaline ....

 

I think my issue is that I don’t think I would know what to look for to see if it was too cheap. 

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4 minutes ago, Bee said:

Its a good question. What is the base engine? Is it Isuzu?  My engine is a Beta so it has a Kubota engine as used in many small tractors and suchlike and I get the filters from a nearby agricultural suppliers. I expect you can get yours from an Isuzu (?) dealer cheaper than Engine plus price. I use a local car parts place for car filters and if I could get a cross reference I would probably use them for the boat engine. I don't use really cheap filters though, have a look on You Tube for rubbish oil filters, there is a difference in quality if you go very cheap.

 

Ive been getting my oil filters from a farm supplier (Malpassonline). I have a belief which I hope is correct that farmers like cheap but don't like rubbish as they have so much invested in their machinery.

 

..................Dave

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2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Nothing is certain you can just swing the odds in your favour.

 

The official part is very likely to be a good one but at a very inflated price and has been branded with the engine makers name but was purchased in from a filter factory that might be in China.

The cheapest filter might come from the same factory and be just as good, but maybe subject to a bit less quality control.

The big independent names like onlinefilters are likely supplying good filters.

The worse case would be getting a fake unit but these will be branded to look like proper filters so not easy to spot.

I would avoid real cheap eBay stuff unless it comes from a good known supplier who also sells on eBay.

 

............Dave

Hi Dave

I wouldn’t want to kill my engine for the sake of £20 but I am probably more curious to know if I am just buying the same item at different prices ..... and how could I tell?

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I wouldn't know what to look for either.  The tin can part will look just the job, looking down the hole in the top won't tell you much. cutting a few filters open and looking at the pleated paper stuff might give you a clue but its all down to particle sizes in microns, flow rates in milli litres and whether the thing has any bypass thingys in it.

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If you get a branded filter (Donaldson, FRAM etc) from a reputable shop then its likely to be ok.

 

There is loads of geek stuff on the www where people (usually in America) cut filters open and declare them to be good or rubbish but without enough knowledge to judge.

I think they declared FRAM as rubbish because they use cardboard ends, whilst FRAM point out that the paper element bonds more securely to cardboard than it would to plastic.

 

John Deere have a lot of stuff demonstrating why you should only buy genuine JD parts, but if you go into a Deere main agent what do you find on the shelves???? ?

 

..............Dave

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As a regular boater you just can;'t tell. At some point you'll have to trust someone. Peoples level of trust will be at different points of filter name, retailers name and price. If you get sold a useless filter that doesn't actually filter you have no way of telling. Only that your engine may need replacing, or rebuilding years later and no way to link that to a particular filter change.

Tough isn't it!

 

I tend to use larger motor factors, or suppliers selling to the industrial/agricultural market for filters. My trade off of reliability vs cost.

Jen

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I use OEM filters for my Beta because, sourced sensibly, they're only a quid or 2 more than an "equivalent". Try this: find an equivalent from manufacturer A, then it's equivalent from manufacturer B, then it's equivalent from manufacturer C, etc, and keep going til the trail leads back to manufacturer A. Is it the same filter as you started with? Often not, so someone's "equivalent" isn't quite right, is it. If you can find the specs, and can be sure they match, that's fine,  but good luck finding the specs. Not worth the trouble for a few quid a year in my opinion, but then I might think differently if I was buying Vetus OEM spares! :D

 

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Didn't Fram use cardboard in their filters

 

Copied from internet

"I emailed FRAM and asked them why. Here's the answer I received. By the way, at the end where it says 'thank you for choosing Fram filters', I actually haven't chosen them, but may consider the X2. [Razz] Thank you for the e-mail regarding the construction of Fram oil filters. We welcome the opportunity to be of service. Fram uses a cardboard material in the construction of it's oil filters. Fram filters meet the requirements of the original equipment filter designed for a specific engine. Our filter applications follow the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer for form, fit, and function. Fram filters follow internally targeted design guidelines to meet the functional requirements of a given filter. Fram filters are tested against SAE standards to ensure uniform product quality and performance. Material construction will vary between filter manufacturers. We will not debate opinions, statements, or studies made by individuals expressed in articles or on websites. We believe Fram filters have a proven record for providing reliability, superior quality, and engine protection over the service life of the filter. We welcome the opportunity to enlighten you on the subject of cardboard used in Fram end disk construction. A common misunderstanding among our customers concerns the end disks in the oil filter. These disks hold the glue which keeps the pleated media formed into a rigid circular tube. The glue-to-media interface is also one of the sealing surfaces keeping dirty and filtered oil from mixing. One common myth is that only metal end disks can adequately seal and have enough strength in the hot oil environment. For this reason, Fram filters are criticized for having cardboard end disks. The issue is, the material doing the sealing is the adhesive, regardless of the material of the end disk. What matters is the strength of the adhesive, its proper curing, the thoroughness with which it can be applied to the disk, and its adhesion to the disk. By using cardboard end disks, Fram filter engineers are able to specify adhesives with excellent strength and sealing properties, and strong adhesion to the disk (intuitively, it is easy to make a strong glue bond with cardboard). Moreover, just as paper media itself is able to withstand the hot oil environment, so too is the end disk designed of fibers engineered to be strong and inert in hot oil. The thickness and strength of the adhesive also stiffens the end disk considerably. How do Fram engineers test these end disks to know that they hold up on the job? Not only do they perform hot oil circulation tests on the filter element, but they also regularly cut open used filters to examine how well they have withstood the rigors of actual use on a vehicle. For over 38 years, Fram end disks have stood up to hot oil and their adhesives have sealed off the dirty oil. We believe that FRAM filters are clearly the best filters available. Fram is committed to standing behind and endorsing it's products and filter recommendations listed in the current Fram application catalogs. As part of this commitment, if you should ever have reason to suspect or question the quality of a Fram filter, we encourage you to contact the Fram Product Evaluation Team toll free at 1-877-250-8361 for further assistance. Thank you for choosing Fram filters. Cordially, Scott Jacobs Catalog/Technical Service Representative Catalog/Technical Service Department"

Edited by Tonka
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I have cut open lots of filters over the years, some good, some very good, very few in any way "bad"

 

I can say that some Fram filters contain less pleated paper filter material than some other equivalent brands. The cardboard disk assembly is not an issue.

 

If the filter is made and marked as from a reputable company I would have no qualms about using it. The average filter is no where near choked by the time it is changed at the recommended service interval. Many are identical from the same assembly line but marked and carton printed  for different "manufacturers".

 

Ensure that the bypass valve pressure is similar and that any anti drain back valve is present as in the OE filter.

 

For many years I used Crosland filters, autopsy revealed a very well packed filter, proper assembly with plenty of glue and valves as they should be. Unfortunately they are no longer made.

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4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Ensure that the bypass valve pressure is similar and that any anti drain back valve is present as in the OE filter.

 

For many years I used Crosland filters, autopsy revealed a very well packed filter, proper assembly with plenty of glue and valves as they should be. Unfortunately they are no longer made.

Its finding the details such as bypass pressure that's the difficulty though Tracy, isn't it. 

 

I hadn't seen Crosland had gone - I bought some of their car filters only last year. Shame, I'd always trusted them.

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15 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I have cut open lots of filters over the years, some good, some very good, very few in any way "bad"

 

I can say that some Fram filters contain less pleated paper filter material than some other equivalent brands. The cardboard disk assembly is not an issue.

 

If the filter is made and marked as from a reputable company I would have no qualms about using it. The average filter is no where near choked by the time it is changed at the recommended service interval. Many are identical from the same assembly line but marked and carton printed  for different "manufacturers".

 

Ensure that the bypass valve pressure is similar and that any anti drain back valve is present as in the OE filter.

 

For many years I used Crosland filters, autopsy revealed a very well packed filter, proper assembly with plenty of glue and valves as they should be. Unfortunately they are no longer made.

 

7 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Its finding the details such as bypass pressure that's the difficulty though Tracy, isn't it. 

 

I hadn't seen Crosland had gone - I bought some of their car filters only last year. Shame, I'd always trusted them.

They arnt gone I bought some last month, I think eurocarparts own them now 

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23 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

They arnt gone I bought some last month, I think eurocarparts own them now 

Thanks for that, I find there website to be useless unless you want car parts, their system will not allow search by brand or non-auto application. So I have asked them.

 

 

Ah, the plot thickens

 

"https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=28684

 

They were closed down, Euro Car Parts bought the name only. They are now made in India

 

People also ask

Where are Crosland filters manufactured?
India
 
Crosland are almost certainly made in India by Guttmann Automotive Components as they used to sell these and the they started selling Crosland. Most of ECP's generic stuff is Indian as the owner is an Indian. It was, but since 2011 ECP has been owned by American autofactor company LKQ.20 Jan 2005
 
 
 
So I will have to cut up some more if I come across them. Life ain't simple is it?
Edited by Tracy D'arth
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Interesting topic with no simple answer, sorry. Not too much of a concern on narrow boat engines as oil changed at same time as 

filters but Just to add another complexity, better is not always better either! Had a massive problem at work once (industrial gas turbines) when some bright spark decided to change to a new filter supplier, who rightly claimed it was a better filter. Unfortunately the better, whilst cheaper filter had a slightly improved filtration rating. This was great on new units, but on old units with 3000 litre oil tanks (oil never changed, just topped up) filters would block within days! Very unhappy customers! Thankfully no bypass devices fitted so units shutdown on high filter DP, rather than wiping the white metal bearings.

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21 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Thanks for that, I find there website to be useless unless you want car parts, their system will not allow search by brand or non-auto application. So I have asked them.

 

 

Ah, the plot thickens

 

"https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=28684

 

They were closed down, Euro Car Parts bought the name only. They are now made in India

 

People also ask

Where are Crosland filters manufactured?
India
 
Crosland are almost certainly made in India by Guttmann Automotive Components as they used to sell these and the they started selling Crosland. Most of ECP's generic stuff is Indian as the owner is an Indian. It was, but since 2011 ECP has been owned by American autofactor company LKQ.20 Jan 2005
 
 
 
So I will have to cut up some more if I come across them. Life ain't simple is it?

We have used them for years for no other reason than its what they sent! We get to see lots of filters because they are just paper elements, they look the same as the ones we remove and plenty of the cars have clocked up many miles on them with no issues. 

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I always use filters that are good quality but I buy them in when I see them at a  sensible price.

 

I recently changed the oil and used a Mann filter. I have used Baldwin oil filters in the past and presently have Baldwin fuel filters with no issues. In fact used them  at least half a dozen years .

Wix seem another acceptably good brand.

 

Buying cheaper doesn't necessarily mean compromising on quality. It has taken a bit of research to find the 100% correct cross references . Just because it fits doesn't necessarily mean its correct.  Also try to find two or more sources of  cross reference as  some may be incorrect. Beware of close but not quite right references as the difference may be the threads being metric or imperial - obviously that has to be correct.

 

The biggest saving I  get is air filters at  £7 compared to £25 for the engine makers branded part.

 

It's the same  story with oil. The engine oil with the engine makers label on it is at least double the price of the correct spec oil from a quality source.

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36 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

They arnt gone I bought some last month, I think eurocarparts own them now 

 

This is yet another complication, the selling of Brands.

Buy something from a "reputable" brand and you think its good but in fact its just cheap crap with a historic famous name attached.

This happens so much that I am surprised that brands still have any value, but we are easily fooled because its an emotional thing.

Many boaters like Lucas batteries and think they are good quality from a historic British brand, but I bet they are not really made in Birmingham.

In fact its quite odd how the Lucas brand now conveys quality because it its heyday it was a pile of crap.

 

...............Dave

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

 

This is yet another complication, the selling of Brands.

Buy something from a "reputable" brand and you think its good but in fact its just cheap crap with a historic famous name attached.

This happens so much that I am surprised that brands still have any value, but we are easily fooled because its an emotional thing.

Many boaters like Lucas batteries and think they are good quality from a historic British brand, but I bet they are not really made in Birmingham.

In fact its quite odd how the Lucas brand now conveys quality because it its heyday it was a pile of crap.

 

...............Dave

Lucas prince of darkness!

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10 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It's the same  story with oil.

 

I needed some hydraulic oil for my Vetus steering, local marina (Newark) had Volvo branded oil that met the specs, priced at £43 for a litre or Ultraflex steering oil at £24.99, per litre I decided I didn't need it that badly.

 

Took a note of the various specifications and went online.

An ebay seller had 4 litre cans at £15 including postage.

 

Exact equivalent with all the same approvals to the same specifications.

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I needed some hydraulic oil for my Vetus steering, local marina (Newark) had Volvo branded oil that met the specs, priced at £43 for a litre or Ultraflex steering oil at £24.99, per litre I decided I didn't need it that badly.

 

Took a note of the various specifications and went online.

An ebay seller had 4 litre cans at £15 including postage.

 

Exact equivalent with all the same approvals to the same specifications.

Just used hydraulic oil in mine when I filled it up been ok for years, plus cheap as well 

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A friend of mine who blended oil additives for a living told me that the specification they meet when new is not necessarily the specification they are capable of meeting 100 hours later. 

It's not always wise to buy cheap.

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