frangar Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 This is possibly not totally boat related...... Im thinking of buying a battery tester....It seems things have moved on from the simple drop testers and they now seem mainly to be versions on a theme and are capable of doing a bit more. However there are a few different models on eBay with no real guide as to which is best. Im not willing to pay the roughly £3k for the Fluke! Something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KONNWEI-Professional-Car-Battery-Tester-KW600-Auto-Battery-Load-Analyzer/352856007114?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D9c0676ee38fd45f4af9e1542bdccd982%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D9%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D254779919692%26itm%3D352856007114%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad2f52b43-54d2-11eb-bf01-3a9ef72c34b2|parentrq%3Af6992cfa1760a4cc349dae19ffe9aff8|iid%3A1 or This https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Car-Battery-Load-Tester-Analyzer-Cranking-Charging-Test-6V-12V-100-2000-CCA/233616297783?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111314%26meid%3Dbe3b9a15742b4cc79361b290609ad83f%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D352856007114%26itm%3D233616297783%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b%26brand%3DTOPDON&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851 I want it for testing the starter battery on my cars etc...one of which I think has sulphated itself due to lack of use in lockdown despite being hooked up to a charger/small solar panel periodically. If it tested leisure batteries that would be a bonus and Id pay a bit more but nothing in the sub £150 range seems to do this with any accuracy that I have found looking around so far...as we all know CCA testing isnt really an indicator of health for leisure batteries! Does anyone have any direct experience of such testers....the only reviews Ive found are on amazon and they range from them being the best thing ever to a useless gimmick!....Ive already got a calibrated Fluke multimeter for testing resting voltage etc...I was hoping for something that could tell me more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 For capacity I leave the battery on a trickle charger until I know it’s fully charged, then connect it to a load, say a couple of bulbs to give a load of about 10A. The current will drop with voltage, but I measure the current and volts every 30mins (give or take) and roughly calculate the amp hours every time. For my 110Ah batteries I would stop when I get to about 50Ah as that means the battery is still serviceable, but so far this test has confirmed my knackered batteries are indeed knackered (best was just over 20Ah). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith M Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 have a look at Midtronics units. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 Having read the advert I am left with the suspicion that as far as batteries are concerned its juts a glorified voltmeter that uses the starter load to modify the straight voltage reading. I may well be wrong but for £35 I doubt I am. Very happy to be told I am and to have its operation explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 20 minutes ago, frangar said: This is possibly not totally boat related...... Im thinking of buying a battery tester....It seems things have moved on from the simple drop testers and they now seem mainly to be versions on a theme and are capable of doing a bit more. However there are a few different models on eBay with no real guide as to which is best. Im not willing to pay the roughly £3k for the Fluke! Something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KONNWEI-Professional-Car-Battery-Tester-KW600-Auto-Battery-Load-Analyzer/352856007114?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D9c0676ee38fd45f4af9e1542bdccd982%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D9%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D254779919692%26itm%3D352856007114%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad2f52b43-54d2-11eb-bf01-3a9ef72c34b2|parentrq%3Af6992cfa1760a4cc349dae19ffe9aff8|iid%3A1 or This https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Car-Battery-Load-Tester-Analyzer-Cranking-Charging-Test-6V-12V-100-2000-CCA/233616297783?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111314%26meid%3Dbe3b9a15742b4cc79361b290609ad83f%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D352856007114%26itm%3D233616297783%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b%26brand%3DTOPDON&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851 I want it for testing the starter battery on my cars etc...one of which I think has sulphated itself due to lack of use in lockdown despite being hooked up to a charger/small solar panel periodically. If it tested leisure batteries that would be a bonus and Id pay a bit more but nothing in the sub £150 range seems to do this with any accuracy that I have found looking around so far...as we all know CCA testing isnt really an indicator of health for leisure batteries! Does anyone have any direct experience of such testers....the only reviews Ive found are on amazon and they range from them being the best thing ever to a useless gimmick!....Ive already got a calibrated Fluke multimeter for testing resting voltage etc...I was hoping for something that could tell me more! All you need is a battery charger, an Ammeter* & Voltmeter* (about £30) a 50 watt bulb, & a few hours available **A clamp meter is ideal, but ensure it works on DC amps (many don't) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen-in-Wellies Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 The cynic in me says that the main purpose of a garage battery tester is a psychological thing to get garage customers to shell out for a new battery. Customer "Is my battery knackered?" Grease Monkey "Let me put it on our battery tester" Flashing lights etc. Grease Monkey "The machine says it is knackered" Customer "Here, have lots of money for a new battery" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 These are just 'load' testers.....as it says in the title for each. I guess they are just good for telling you how the battery responds to a high load for a few seconds. Therefore likely to be useful for saying if a starter battery has enough ooomph to start an engine but little else. I think they would be pretty useless in diagnosing problems of sulphation on a domestic bank. The new batteries on our new boat were knackered when we got the boat (likely left on to run boat services with no shore power so voltage <10V for an extended period). Instead of 440Ahr capacity, they were down to <150Ahrs when tested on a 10A load overnight. The builder brought along a professional load tester and they were tested when they were fully charged and it showed them borderline on being able to deliver the required amps (IIRC it was a 100A load). Very inconclusive. A professional load tester can certainly tell you if a starter battery has enough oomph to start an engine (and maybe if one cell is bad which is useful if that cell is bad under high load) but are these cheap testers as good as that. Rather than buy one, as they seem limited in what they can do, and certainly not diagnose domestic batteries, I would try and borrow one to test out you starter battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frangar Posted January 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 The thoughts on here echo much what I thought....Ive already got the Mutlimeter and ammeter so I think that's the route Im going...After all a drop tester is just a load and a crude voltmeter! Ive had success with a reasonably priced Chinese OBD reader but think the battery testers might be over hyped..... @Keith M I looked at those.....they arent any cheaper than the Fluke and thats a lot of starter batteries....and a few sets of Trojans! ? I think the accountant might wince at that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 The items linked to are not load testers, and don’t draw massive currents. They claim to be able to measure the internal resistance (from which they calculate CCA) and then using clever algorithms and impressed currents calculate health of the battery (based on remaining capacity and CCA). When I worked for one of the car manufacturers a battery warranty claim would only be accepted with a midtronics tester print out showing replace. So certainly some of these are capable of identifying a ‘no good’ battery, but as to accurately measuring capacity, I don’t know how accurate they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frangar Posted January 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Chewbacka said: The items linked to are not load testers, and don’t draw massive currents. They claim to be able to measure the internal resistance (from which they calculate CCA) and then using clever algorithms and impressed currents calculate health of the battery (based on remaining capacity and CCA). When I worked for one of the car manufacturers a battery warranty claim would only be accepted with a midtronics tester print out showing replace. So certainly some of these are capable of identifying a ‘no good’ battery, but as to accurately measuring capacity, I don’t know how accurate they are. Indeed.....Its the claims they make Im not sure about....especially given the price difference between the chinese units and the Midtronics/fluke units! It would be interesting to see some comparisons between the Midtronics and the Ebay jobs! Edited to add I think at least one I looked at of the ebay ones used the engine cranking as the "load" but given it didn't seem to measure the amp draw at the same time I can't see how that can be too accurate. Edited January 12, 2021 by frangar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 17 minutes ago, frangar said: Indeed.....Its the claims they make Im not sure about....especially given the price difference between the chinese units and the Midtronics/fluke units! It would be interesting to see some comparisons between the Midtronics and the Ebay jobs! Edited to add I think at least one I looked at of the ebay ones used the engine cranking as the "load" but given it didn't seem to measure the amp draw at the same time I can't see how that can be too accurate. It can't be, its just a voltmeter with a funny display. I don't think it can distinguish between a serviceable battery that is flat, one with a slight short in a cell, a restive cell interlink, or one so badly sulphated it only has a few Ah capacity left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frangar Posted January 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 Just now, Tony Brooks said: It can't be, its just a voltmeter with a funny display. I don't think it can distinguish between a serviceable battery that is flat, one with a slight short in a cell, a restive cell interlink, or one so badly sulphated it only has a few Ah capacity left. I think it measured the start voltage.....measured and timed the voltage during cranking....then measured the finish voltage....and did some maths to have a guess at what's happening.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetman Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Keith M said: have a look at Midtronics units. I've got one of the original conductance testers which Midtronics units are based on. It's a Motorola moving needle unit (Motorola patent). It is pretty good for checking what the battery is actually like in real life. I actually used it as part of the details for a warranty claim on Rolls batteries. As well as a refractometer for the acid, obviously. They do turn up on eBay now and again. Rather bulky though. I think Hoppecke badged them too. Old school gear but very effective and does not need it's own batteries. It's one of these. It has Kelvin type crocodile clips presumably for accuracy. Quite a nicely made item really. Edited January 12, 2021 by magnetman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUMPY Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said: The cynic in me says that the main purpose of a garage battery tester is a psychological thing to get garage customers to shell out for a new battery. Customer "Is my battery knackered?" Grease Monkey "Let me put it on our battery tester" Flashing lights etc. Grease Monkey "The machine says it is knackered" Customer "Here, have lots of money for a new battery" Interestingly my garage the last time my car was serviced said The computer said the battery is knackered, Me: it's only a few months old Garage: testers probably lying again. It has been mostly on float for the last 10 months as I use C's gas guzzling petrol car for short journeys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frangar Posted January 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, Loddon said: Interestingly my garage the last time my car was serviced said The computer said the battery is knackered, Me: it's only a few months old Garage: testers probably lying again. It has been mostly on float for the last 10 months as I use C's gas guzzling petrol car for short journeys. I think some garages use batteries/discs/pads/wiper blades etc as a quick cheap (for them) money earner in a lot of cases....its funny how they back down if challenged....we had it a lot with Renault service depts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetman Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 My old Saab 9000 had a very nice feature which was a voltage display on the dashboard which showed the minimum voltage of the battery during starting. It logged the minimum and displayed if for a short time. Built in discharge tester. Clever really. The later Saab 95 doesn't have this feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frangar Posted January 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, magnetman said: My old Saab 9000 had a very nice feature which was a voltage display on the dashboard which showed the minimum voltage of the battery during starting. It logged the minimum and displayed if for a short time. Built in discharge tester. Clever really. The later Saab 95 doesn't have this feature. It's funny that modern cars with all the onboard tech that they have now seem to have lost some very useful features...Judging from my OBD reader a lot of the info is still logged just not passed directly onto the driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, frangar said: I think it measured the start voltage.....measured and timed the voltage during cranking....then measured the finish voltage....and did some maths to have a guess at what's happening.... Absolutely that and we know from solar "state of charge" meters just how accurate that is likely to be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetman Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 Did @gibbo ever get into this ? He seemed to know all there was to know about lead acid batteries and state of charge. Very smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, magnetman said: I've got one of the original conductance testers which Midtronics units are based on. It's a Motorola moving needle unit (Motorola patent). It is pretty good for checking what the battery is actually like in real life. I actually used it as part of the details for a warranty claim on Rolls batteries. As well as a refractometer for the acid, obviously. They do turn up on eBay now and again. Rather bulky though. I think Hoppecke badged them too. Old school gear but very effective and does not need it's own batteries. It's one of these. It has Kelvin type crocodile clips presumably for accuracy. Quite a nicely made item really. That is the design of meter that I would put some trust in. I think the MOD used them to test batteries both on and off vehicles kept in reserve but £35 they are not. The ones KeithM pointed to probably work the same way. 1 minute ago, magnetman said: Did @gibbo ever get into this ? He seemed to know all there was to know about lead acid batteries and state of charge. Very smart. No idea but I suspect his work in mapping battery voltage and state of charge probably sowed the idea of extrapolating battery condition from voltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearley Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, frangar said: I think some garages use batteries/discs/pads/wiper blades etc as a quick cheap (for them) money earner in a lot of cases....its funny how they back down if challenged....we had it a lot with Renault service depts Our workshop as Auto Electricians was opposite a branch of KwikFit. People would buy new batteries there then a few days later come to us to get their alternator repaired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keeping Up Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 A couple of years ago my cheapish Ctek battery charger stopped charging my car's starter battery, reporting it as faulty, just before the car was due to for a service. I told the garage (Mazda main dealer) and they said they had recently gained a £20,000 computerised tester so would check it out. The detailed printout said the battery was in good health but needed a charge, which seemed strange as I had just driven 25 miles to get there; the next morning the battery failed completely and I had to buy a new one. I don't trust those fancy testers (and btw nor does my son-in-law who works in a garage) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetman Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said: That is the design of meter that I would put some trust in. I think the MOD used them to test batteries both on and off vehicles kept in reserve but £35 they are not. The ones KeithM pointed to probably work the same way. No idea but I suspect his work in mapping battery voltage and state of charge probably sowed the idea of extrapolating battery condition from voltage. Yes the Midtronics units mentioned by KeithM are based partly on a Motorola patent as I mentioned before. In fact they still seem to add text to this effect in the manual. Among other patents "This product may utilize technology exclusively licensed to Midtronics, Inc. by Johnson Controls, Inc. and/or Motorola, Inc. (That's for the Midtronics MDX640 which is indeed not a £35 product). The old one I have was about £20 on eBay I collected it from a man with an Irish accent who had a house in Slough with a nice large motorhome beside it and a lockup garage packed to the rafters with power tools. Collectable item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 20 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said: The cynic in me says that the main purpose of a garage battery tester is a psychological thing to get garage customers to shell out for a new battery. Customer "Is my battery knackered?" Grease Monkey "Let me put it on our battery tester" Flashing lights etc. Grease Monkey "The machine says it is knackered" Customer "Here, have lots of money for a new battery" I had it work the other way. I knew the newish battery had a shorted cell. Took it back under warranty. Grease Monkey puts tester on it for about 30 milliseconds and pronounces it ok. I argue ait isn't and persuade him to test it again. This time before he can move hands away after 30 milliseconds I grab them so tester is still on battery. 5 seconds later acid erupts from the faulty cell. Got the battery replaced under warranty. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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