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Red is not dead, - yet


Tracy D'arth

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1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

The local garage near me sells red either from the pump or in  20l barrels. They will not sell it for inland waterway use. They're happy to sell it to me for my tractor, generator or 'plant' ....

 

I currently get most of my boat red from the local fuel boat, just hope these changes dont make it unviable  for fuel boats to operate ..

 

I reckon there would be quite a healthy trade for a fuel boat selling red diesel aka gasoil/35 sec heating oil to boat owners who have diesel heating and generators on their boats. 

 

Presumably it is up to the consumer to decide what to use the fuel for rather than the supplier. 

 

If that oil found its way into the combustion chambers of diesel propulsion engines then it seems to not be much of a concern to the RDCO. 

 

Or is it? Maybe it is. 

 

 

ETA maybe a RDCO has a duty of care to ensure the fuel they sell is not abused. 

 

I doubt it though because that would make it a pointless business. 

 

Of course if there is a general move to make oil products businesses pointless over time for climate change reasons that could alter the situation quite a lot. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Of course if there is a general move to make oil products businesses pointless over time for climate change reasons that could alter the situation quite a lot. 

That 'move' is already in motion.

By 2025 ALL new boats built must be capable of conversion to zero emmission

By 2035 No new boats can be built unless they are zero emmission

By 2050  No boats will be allowed on UK waters (inland and coastal) unless they are zero emmission

 

Diesel  / petrol / hybrids etc must be removed from the water or converted to zero emmisson by 2050.

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1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

Ferzackerly (sp?)  - and it WILL be because the oli industry is all about VOLUME - your / my piffling load of 1,2,300 l of fuel isn't going to make any real difference to the price that the canal side vendor can offer.

I'm content (well not really) to pay an uplift over the supermarket price, but not what te canalside seller has to charge.

 

There remains a possibility that the 60/40 duty split may be applied to white diesel  for boat fuel.  This would  make the price similar to supermarket prices.

 

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So, where is all this canal-side / on-cut white going to come from?  Are suppliers going to buy new tanks / will they be required to?  If not, how long will it take for the dye / marker to dilute out of their tanks before the diesel even gets into my tank?

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9 hours ago, Opener said:

So, where is all this canal-side / on-cut white going to come from?  Are suppliers going to buy new tanks / will they be required to?  If not, how long will it take for the dye / marker to dilute out of their tanks before the diesel even gets into my tank?

I suspect there will be fat fewer suppliers if they are all required to buy new tanks etc.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I suspect there will be fat fewer suppliers if they are all required to buy new tanks etc.

 

 

RCDO's are to be responsible for checking that the buyer is allowed to to buy the type of fuel they are supplying.

Presumambly that will mean, if you are buying 'Red' they will have to check that you have a separate tank for 'domestic' fuel.

 

Ensuring compliance: fuel suppliers

 

5.7 The government expects that some fuel suppliers currently selling red diesel will switch to providing white diesel to sectors that have lost their entitlement.

 

5.8 However, the government understands that the chemical markers used to identify red diesel may remain in fuel tanks and pipes when these fuel suppliers switch to white diesel. The government wants to minimise the risk that white diesel that has had the full duty rate paid on it is sold contaminated with the red diesel marker. This could lead to those that had legitimately purchased white diesel being found to have committed an offence as if they had misused red diesel.

 

5.9 To mitigate the risk of this issue materialising, the government proposes that any fuel suppliers that switch a fuel tank from red to white diesel, in anticipation of the introduction of the tax changes (or after it has taken place), will need to flush out the tank and pump until no trace of marked rebated fuel remains.

 

5.10 RDCOs that will no longer supply controlled oils as a result of these tax changes will be required to de-register from the RDCO scheme. This will result in a significant reduction in administrative burdens and subsequent cost savings for them. They will have 30 days from the date of deregistration to dispose of controlled oil stocks and must tell HMRC how they plan to do this, including the removal of marker traces in tanks being redeployed. As part of this, RDCOs that possess red diesel they do not believe they will sell to end users may sell the fuel to other RDCOs.

 

5.11 The fuel suppliers that switch only a few of their tanks from red diesel to white diesel, but still intend to supply controlled oils and remain a part of the RDCO scheme, will also be able to sell to other RDCOs any surplus red diesel that they do not believe they will sell to end users.

 

5.12 RDCO scheme guidance will be updated so that fuel suppliers know the process that they will need to abide by when switching some of their tanks from red to white diesel. This includes guidance on how to ensure that they dispose of any red diesel the fuel supplier has not sold in accordance with the relevant environmental regulations, although the government expects fuel suppliers to manage their stocks of red diesel to avoid fuel waste. Failure to abide by this guidance may result in removal from the RDCO scheme.

 

5.13 While the government recognises that flushing out fuel tanks and pumps will be a cost to the fuel suppliers that want to switch to providing more or only white diesel, the government believes this will significantly aid HMRC to ensure compliance and detect any misuse of red diesel. Not only will this protect revenue, but it will also help maintain a level playing field for compliant businesses.

 

5.14 As set out above, RDCOs will be required to take reasonable steps to make sure that all their customers are properly entitled to receive the fuel that is being supplied. More information will be included in RDCO scheme guidance to ensure RDCOs are clear on what steps they are required to take.

 

5.15 HMRC will work with fuel suppliers (including RDCOs) ahead of the introduction of the tax changes to ensure they understand what these steps are and are clear on what they may need to do in preparation. This includes communicating the changes with sufficient notice to all their customers that will lose their entitlement to use red diesel so that they avoid purchasing fuel that they will not be able to use up by April 2022.

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There is a lot of 'wailing and gnashing of gums but I really don't think that the pricing is going to hugely change.

Assuming they are making correct declarations boaters are already paying full duty on their propulsion fuel.

 

In theory, there should be minimal effect on leisure boaters - it is proposed that the 60/40 split (or similar relief scheme) remains, so, the only difference will be the colour of the diesel.

 

There is most likely to be some impact on pricing as suppliers have to 'invest' in cleaning and flushing of their old systems (but for fuel boats operating from 'caged 1000 litre IBC's,' the cost will be pretty much £15 for a new IBC and flushing their dispensing equipment)

Security may need to be tightened as there is a higher risk of theft of white diesel than Red - that could be another 'cost' to the business.

 

As now, fuel prices will be higher than roadside service stations.

If anyone wishes to avail themselves of 'supermarket fuel prices' than a couple of 20 litre Jerry cans would probably keep an average NB running for a couple of weeks - the issue then becomes one of water pollution during transfer of the fuel to the boat,

 

5.37 As committed to at Budget 2020, the government has been exploring options to prevent users of private pleasure craft with only one fuel tank on board for propulsion and non-propulsion having to pay a higher rate of duty on their non-propulsion use of diesel than they currently pay.

 

5.38 The government is considering introducing a new relief scheme where approved fuel suppliers would be able to deduct from the sale price the duty difference on the proportion of white diesel intended for non-propulsion use. The fuel suppliers would then reclaim this deducted duty from HMRC and reflect this in the price charged to the private pleasure craft user at the point of sale.

 

5.39 Analysis by both the industry and HMRC previously suggested that a split of 60% for propulsion and 40% for non-propulsion use probably reflected most crafts’ typical fuel use. The government would welcome views on whether this apportionment remains typical, with supporting evidence.

 

5.40 The government would also welcome views on whether the relief should be a fixed percentage or whether it should be capped at a maximum percentage. A fixed percentage would mean a written declaration from craft users of how they use their fuel would not be required and it should make it slightly easier for fuel suppliers to work out the duty that needs to be deducted from the sale price and compile all the claims for HMRC. A relief capped at a maximum percentage would allow craft users to more accurately reflect the amount of diesel they intend to use for non-propulsion. This would necessitate a written declaration from the craft user to the fuel supplier on how they intended to use each tank of fuel (which would need to be made available to HMRC on request), although craft users could lodge a standing declaration with any supplier where they were a regular customer to save them making new declarations each time they refuelled.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Having kept lutine going on supermarket diesel I question the economics if fuel is available canalside. Unless you are already going to the filling station for other reasons the time and mileage in your own car will very quickly outweigh any savings, unless you've some deep seated psychological need to pay less for the fuel regardless of how much you spend achieving that saving. 

 

Edited because lutine ran on diesel not petrol 

Edited by magpie patrick
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On 10/11/2020 at 21:35, Jerra said:

#22 and a previous date would only protect you for a while.   I suspect a half decent forensic chemist would be able to work our how much the traces of red had been diluted.

Even a muppet could work it out.

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13 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I'm not sure it will. I rarely let my diesel tank go below 70%, and never, ever run it to anything close to empty.  It will be a very long time indeed after changing to white that there'd be no trace of red in my tank, and I doubt I'm in a minority. I think it would take a complete tank drain and very thorough tank clean to remove any trace.

I think the point was that if they changed the chemical marker on the date of introduction in red diesel, if you then had that marker in your tank, then that is proof you bought red diesel illegally. 

Problem is, they couldn't change the marker on a specific day, so that won't happen. Maybe something they would introduce in time, but don't give em any ideas!

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Tractor vaporising oil has not been available for many years. I believe you can mix your own subsitute,using parafin mixed with a little petrol.  The Grey Fergy was petrol only when it went into production.   I believe the parafin conversion was produced by an outside supplier,later adopted by Fergusson. Did Morris offer a petrol /parafin version of the Vedette marine engine?

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49 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In theory, there should be minimal effect on leisure boaters - it is proposed that the 60/40 split (or similar relief scheme) remains, so, the only difference will be the colour of the diesel.

Well, I hope so, but what a faff and kerfuffle for nothing if this is so. Is there really enough gain to the Exchequer to justify the work involved? I almost understood why this was a thing before Boris's girlfriend (as it now seems) "took back control" from the EU who were said to be inflicting it upon us, but now? If the argument is we agreed as part of 'the deal', there are international law issues we're set to renege upon - how come this minor distraction, which HMRC previously had little enthusiasm for, has any momentum?

 

I'm sure someone who has more of an interest than me knows, and I'd be grateful to learn... if it's a short enough answer!

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7 minutes ago, nebulae said:

Tractor vaporising oil has not been available for many years. I believe you can mix your own subsitute,using parafin mixed with a little petrol.  The Grey Fergy was petrol only when it went into production.   I believe the parafin conversion was produced by an outside supplier,later adopted by Fergusson. Did Morris offer a petrol /parafin version of the Vedette marine engine?

Yes, we had to do a home brew TVO but now you need a licence to produce it for your own consumption.

David Brown also did a paraffin  engined tractor.

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14 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

I dunno - I just know it's not boaters now, not unless they got very lost and entered a parallel universe where the Dorset and Somerset was actually built!

 

Not sure who goes to a pump for paraffin either!

 

If pressed, I suspect there is a significant market for small amounts of red diesel (and obviously paraffin) - it isn't just farmers who live in the wilds and have stationary generators, there are many rural dwellings round here that have, say, an acre of land and some outbuildings and make use of diesel power for pumps, generators and the like. 

 

Do paraffin engines exist? 

I used to, until recently, buy my paraffin from a forecourt pump, much cheaper 

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48 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Having kept lutine going on supermarket diesel I question the economics if fuel is available canalside. Unless you are already going to the filling station for other reasons the time and mileage in your own car will very quickly outweigh any savings, unless you've some deep seated psychological need to pay less for the fuel regardless of how much you spend achieving that saving. 

 

Edited because lutine ran on diesel not petrol 

I guess that depends just how much fuel you are using.

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8 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I guess that depends just how much fuel you are using.

Indeed, although it cuts both ways - Lutine was incredibly inefficient towards the end and I was getting 20 litres most days. Easy anough as I was also commuting to the boat rather than staying on overnight so it was one jerry can a day. One jerry can at a time is easy enough if you're already making the journey. 5 jerry cans at a time would be a pain. 

 

Juno runs on Petrol, what I'd give to have canalside fuelling!

 

In both cases fuel is not the major cost of boating. even if I pay 10-20p a litre extra

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6 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I guess that depends just how much fuel you are using.

The savings maybe worth having if you fill up 1000 litres at a time, but that's a lot of Jerry cans to fetch and carry.

I suppose if your tanks are big enough you could arrange for a road-tanker to come and fill you up with White.

 

I still have over 2000 litres in my boat tanks, and the way things are going much of it will still be there in 2022

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43 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I think the point was that if they changed the chemical marker on the date of introduction in red diesel, if you then had that marker in your tank, then that is proof you bought red diesel illegally. 

Problem is, they couldn't change the marker on a specific day, so that won't happen. Maybe something they would introduce in time, but don't give em any ideas!

Ooh, how about dying it green and killing 2 birds with one stone?  Headline news:

 

"Inland Waterways Fleet to switch to Green Diesel"!

:D

 

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25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The savings maybe worth having if you fill up 1000 litres at a time, but that's a lot of Jerry cans to fetch and carry.

I suppose if your tanks are big enough you could arrange for a road-tanker to come and fill you up with White.

 

I still have over 2000 litres in my boat tanks, and the way things are going much of it will still be there in 2022

I doubt we have used a 100 litres of fuel this year. But this has been a far from typical year's boating :unsure:

 

We don't have a huge tank at 225 litres but equally when pottering around on the rivers we don't use a great deal of fuel either. If the difference in price between waterside fuel and the petrol station is large enough to warrant it, fetching 60 litres every six weeks or so to keep the tank topped up isn't going to be out of the question.

 

Obviously if we are out and about and further afield that isn't going to be an option. 

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

I think the point was that if they changed the chemical marker on the date of introduction in red diesel, if you then had that marker in your tank, then that is proof you bought red diesel illegally. 

Problem is, they couldn't change the marker on a specific day, so that won't happen. Maybe something they would introduce in time, but don't give em any ideas!

It’s easy, when fuel has the marker added, then the new marker must be added from a prescribed date.  Sellers with a low turn over will have old marker fuel for a lot longer than high volume sellers, but once word gets around that ‘old marker fuel’ is still available I can see it selling very quickly.  So within a few months just about all marked fuel sold will have the new marker.

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4 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I doubt we have used a 100 litres of fuel this year. But this has been a far from typical year's boating :unsure:

 

We don't have a huge tank at 225 litres but equally when pottering around on the rivers we don't use a great deal of fuel either. If the difference in price between waterside fuel and the petrol station is large enough to warrant it, fetching 60 litres every six weeks or so to keep the tank topped up isn't going to be out of the question.

 

Obviously if we are out and about and further afield that isn't going to be an option. 

It’s not easy carrying 2 x 25litre cans down a towpath.  You will need a trolley, and a trolley suitable for 3 or 4 cans is going to be a pain to store.  So I doubt many will be doing that.  To use one of my favourite expressions - unintended consequences- I do see fuel theft from boats going up......

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15 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

It’s easy, when fuel has the marker added, then the new marker must be added from a prescribed date.  Sellers with a low turn over will have old marker fuel for a lot longer than high volume sellers, but once word gets around that ‘old marker fuel’ is still available I can see it selling very quickly.  So within a few months just about all marked fuel sold will have the new marker.

What did I say????

Dont go giving them any ideas!

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I have two tanks and kero in both of them, one is for the bubble at the pointy end and the other is at the blunt end for the whispergen, Diesel engine gone 2 years ago and because of the reduction in license [25%] and propulsion zero costs [not that it mattered this year] its been a ver cheap couple of years for me. In truth as Alan says in theory your costs for boating will be the same, in practice we all know that its b******s because people have been cheating and this sort of stops that

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14 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

It’s easy, when fuel has the marker added, then the new marker must be added from a prescribed date.  Sellers with a low turn over will have old marker fuel for a lot longer than high volume sellers, but once word gets around that ‘old marker fuel’ is still available I can see it selling very quickly.  So within a few months just about all marked fuel sold will have the new marker.

I seem to remember that red diesel sellers will have to empty and completely clean their old tanks to get rid of any trace of  red diesel if they want/need to switch to selling white and presumably they will have to do this before the cut off date. I don't see much red being available canal side and whether sellers will consider it economically viable to switch to white remains to be seen. I think we are going to lose a  lot of canal side diesel sellers. 

 

Haggis

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