Red is not dead, - yet

[magnetman]

Maybe having an electric boat is better after all. 

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Maybe having an electric boat is better after all. 

 

With a big diesel generator?

 

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

Maybe having an electric boat is better after all. 

Took you a while to realise Andrew, given your love affair with electric outboard!

[Sea Dog]

48 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

With a big diesel generator?

 

If you did, and fed the domestic electrics, charged the domestic batteries and  provided domestic hot water only it could use red diesel, could it?

 

If you had electric drive with solar power or shore power to charge your drive batteries, then none of your diesel supply is required for propulsion under normal circumstances, so that's OK too, right?

 

What, then, if your generator could also do this in an emergency  - which seems a sensible precaution? How could anyone assess where your propulsion battery charge had come from?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Sea Dog
2 spare words deleted

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

If you did, and fed the domestic electrics, charged the domestic batteries and  provided domestic hot water only it could use red diesel, could it?

 

No.  Electricity generation will not be allowed to use red diesel anymore, but some specific businesses will be able to claim back the duty on white diesel.  Backup generation will only be allowed to run on duty paid white.

 

3.16 To ensure that businesses using red diesel to generate electricity for supply through a licensed supplier can continue to reclaim the fuel duty, less any carbon price support payment due, once they have to use white diesel, the government proposes to amend the qualifying fuel definition accordingly

[Sea Dog]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

No.  Electricity generation will not be allowed to use red diesel anymore, but some specific businesses will be able to claim back the duty on white diesel.  Backup generation will only be allowed to run on duty paid white.

That's that little loophole firmly sewn up then!

 

I still don't get how HMRC fought the EU so hard for so long on this issue and, once we are truly out, would then be bothering to enforce it.  I know there's small print in the exit agreement, but even ruining our reputation by breaking international law can't deter Boris from reneging on really serious bits of that.  Bloomin' good job Dominic Cummins got all that money back for the NHS before he took his cardboard box and went home, or it would be easy to become disillusioned.

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I still don't get how HMRC fought the EU so hard for so long on this issue

 

They didn't fight at all.  They essentially just said "Meh, whatever" and didn't do anything they were supposed to.  Then they got a few snippy letters and finally a ruling that they had to do it anyway.

 

The new impetus isn't much to do with boats, it just the marine use thing ties in with the Budget decision to stop nearly everyone except farmers using any red diesel at all. 

 

I suspect that red diesel will disappear from most garages that sell it currently as there won't be the (legal) demand for it anymore and anyone who is still entitled to use red will have to get it delivered to their premises in bulk.

[nb Innisfree]

Cheap diesel will disappear, it has to if green energy is to develop, eventually it will be priced out of the market, in effect, gone for good. 

[Sea Dog]

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

They didn't fight at all.  They essentially just said "Meh, whatever" and didn't do anything they were supposed to.  Then they got a few snippy letters and finally a ruling that they had to do it anyway.

 

The new impetus isn't much to do with boats, it just the marine use thing ties in with the Budget decision to stop nearly everyone except farmers using any red diesel at all. 

 

I suspect that red diesel will disappear from most garages that sell it currently as there won't be the (legal) demand for it anymore and anyone who is still entitled to use red will have to get it delivered to their premises in bulk.

Thanks - you've cheered me up no end! 

(Actually, I am, as I am frequently, impressed by your breath of knowledge, so I mean the thanks bit and the rest is tongue in cheek) 

 

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Cheap diesel will disappear, it has to if green energy is to develop, eventually it will be priced out of the market, in effect, gone for good. 

 

Yep, that was the whole rationale behind the Budget decision - until it gets more expensive nobody had any great incentive to go "greener" with plant.  Expect to see 20' shipping containers full of batteries being swapped out on building sites ...

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Customs have far greater powers that the Police, for example they do not need a search warrant.

Its no good arguing with them but I think there are limitations on them entering your home, how that works with boats I don't know.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/powers-of-entry

Edited November 16, 2020 by ditchcrawler

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its no good arguing with them but I think there are limitations on them entering your home, how that works with boats I don't know.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/powers-of-entry

 

AREAS OF LAW / CRIME

Do customs and excise officials have more rights of entry to private premises than the police? Can they enter a property without the need for a warrant if they have reasonable cause to believe there are goods on the premises where the duty hasn’t been paid?

Yes. Officers of HM Customs and Excise do have rights of entry to private premises which are not available to police officers. They can use what’s known as a “Writ of Assistance”, issued by their own senior investigating officer (the equivalent in rank to a police officer) which gives them powers similar to a search warrant and allows forcible entry where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that anything liable to forfeiture under the Customs and Excise Acts is kept or concealed.

[Chewbacka]

3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yes, that's how they usually work.  I would suggest keeping your fuel receipts on the boat so you can provide the evidence before they seize it rather than waiting until it's been removed.

But remember the ‘advice’ from hmrc which is “expects these users to ensure that they do not purchase red diesel for use from 1 April 2022 and run down their existing stocks of red diesel before that date ”. So if you don’t think you will use much red next year, you are expected to buy white to ensure all the red has been used by the 1 April 2022.  Not acceptable to fill up in March 2022 with red as a last chance.  

[TheBiscuits]

10 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

But remember the ‘advice’ from hmrc which is “expects these users to ensure that they do not purchase red diesel for use from 1 April 2022 and run down their existing stocks of red diesel before that date ”. So if you don’t think you will use much red next year, you are expected to buy white to ensure all the red has been used by the 1 April 2022.  Not acceptable to fill up in March 2022 with red as a last chance.  

 

Indeed, and I highlighted exactly that phrase in my earlier post.

 

My suspicion is that HMRC will have the sense to introduce the "rebated white diesel for boats" scheme earlier - probably from next April, and if they do that we will see red diesel totally disappear from the inland waterways by about June next year.  If it's revenue neutral for the government - which it is very nearly, assuming they go with a standardised 60/40 split - and the marinas can claim the difference back from HMRC, the sensible suppliers will start flushing their tanks early so they don't get hammered the year after.

 

I think that next year's winterisation topup of the tanks will be with white diesel for 90%+ of boats, and those who use a lot of fuel will have been running on white since April.

 

It is worth mentioning that the best way to do it for private users is to run the tank very low first, then partly fill with white and run that very low a couple of times.  Keeping a half tank of red topped up to full with white will leave a lot more tracer and dye in the fuel than burning most of it first.

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

If you did, and fed the domestic electrics, charged the domestic batteries and  provided domestic hot water only it could use red diesel, could it?

 

If you had electric drive with solar power or shore power to charge your drive batteries, then none of your diesel supply is required for propulsion under normal circumstances, so that's OK too, right?

 

What, then, if your generator could also do this in an emergency  - which seems a sensible precaution? How could anyone assess where your propulsion battery charge had come from?

But you would get your 25% discount on your license for full electric drive ? like I do

[magnetman]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

AREAS OF LAW / CRIME

Do customs and excise officials have more rights of entry to private premises than the police? Can they enter a property without the need for a warrant if they have reasonable cause to believe there are goods on the premises where the duty hasn’t been paid?

Yes. Officers of HM Customs and Excise do have rights of entry to private premises which are not available to police officers. They can use what’s known as a “Writ of Assistance”, issued by their own senior investigating officer (the equivalent in rank to a police officer) which gives them powers similar to a search warrant and allows forcible entry where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that anything liable to forfeiture under the Customs and Excise Acts is kept or concealed.

Yes but how many people on boats conceal the diesel inside the living quarters? 

 

 

 

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Yes but how many people on boats conceal the diesel inside the living quarters? 

 

 

 

My mate does on his plastic cruiser it has 4 tanks scattered around the boat, very worrying considering it used to be petrol powered.............one careless fag and its harp time 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Yes but how many people on boats conceal the diesel inside the living quarters? 

 

 

 

You may ask :

 

I have 3 tanks (1x 1000 litre and 2x 900 litres) and all are beneath my saloon floor, does that count ?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Mike Todd]

18 hours ago, peterboat said:

But you would get your 25% discount on your license for full electric drive ? like I do

I don't think that he mean that the genny would drive the prop directly but via the batteries. I thought that still qualified even if used as standard. Someone I think noted this as a 'loophole' a while back.

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I don't think that he mean that the genny would drive the prop directly but via the batteries. I thought that still qualified even if used as standard. Someone I think noted this as a 'loophole' a while back.

A series hybrid but how long before that loophole is closed? It's not in the spirit of the discount so load that solar on

[Mike Todd]

5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

A series hybrid but how long before that loophole is closed? It's not in the spirit of the discount so load that solar on

Interesting question. Almost all forms of transport have become banned, or abandoned, at some stage becoming at best a minority interest. I'd be surprised if electric motive power is an exception so the question is how long does it have left?

[Sea Dog]

Well, I've worked out how I'm going to make the transition. I'm gonna switch to  white, but I'm gonna add red food colouring for a few months til I get used to it, then gradually go paler and paler pink until I'm comfortable with going the whole hog.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Interesting question. Almost all forms of transport have become banned, or abandoned, at some stage becoming at best a minority interest. I'd be surprised if electric motive power is an exception so the question is how long does it have left?

Longer than fossil fuels is the answer really, if Boris does as he says he is going to and bans new  ICE cars in 2030 the car makers will have got rid of them long before then. Ever difficult emission laws will ensure vehicle makers wont put any effort into meeting them especially as the fines already are huge for gross poluters, it will be easier to just make electric vehicles. The third world I suspect will be the dumping ground of our unwanted ICE vehicles until infrastructure allows electric to take over. The problem for us will be fossil fuels as they become less needed will become ever more expensive to make,

Their are a couple of pictures in New York only a few years apart in the first its all horses in the second its all cars, so ICE cars have had a hundred years of it who knows how long electric will have

Edited November 17, 2020 by peterboat

[Machpoint005]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

>>if Boris does as he says he is going to and bans new  ICE cars in 2030<<

 

He won't last that long, nor anything like.

 

 

ETA: As PM, that is.

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Machpoint005

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

He won't last that long, nor anything like.

 

 

ETA: As PM, that is.

 

 

 

Doesnt Matter Ian, once its passed nobody will revoke it, especially as other countries are banning ICE from 2025 onwards