Red is not dead, - yet

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, BrumSaint said:

How does making us use white diesel instead of red reduce CO2 emissions?

10 minutes ago, BrumSaint said:

How does making us use white diesel instead of red reduce CO2 emissions?

By making all of us cleaner energy! It's not just us its the construction industry as well along with fridge freezer lorries 

Edited November 13, 2020 by peterboat

[Steilsteven]

29 minutes ago, BrumSaint said:

How does making us use white diesel instead of red reduce CO2 emissions?

Does nobody read the consultation apart from me? 

The theory is that if users, such as construction sites among others, are unable to buy rebated fuel for machinery it will encourage them to switch to zero emissions equipment. It is also intended to reduce wastage of fuel ie leaving machines running when not in use.

 

Keith

Edited November 13, 2020 by Steilsteven

[GUMPY]

20 minutes ago, BrumSaint said:

How does making us use white diesel instead of red reduce CO2 emissions?

 

It doesn't

White diesel is the same as red diesel.

 

However because of cost it may encourage the development of alternative means of power which may reduce emissions.

[Steilsteven]

On 12/11/2020 at 11:27, MartynG said:

Lets hope the word 'considering' is eventually deleted.

It seems to me for a lot of boat owners the 60/40 split price is not something they are used to paying. 

I think you may get your wish, as far as your first sentence is concerned, and I predict that the government will abandon any notions of splits or rebates.

 

Keith

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Steilsteven said:

I admire your optimism.

 

Keith 

No I don't suggest that and if you read what I said again perhaps you might grasp what I actually said.

 

Keith

As I understand it, removal of a boat that is a home, save for safety reasons, can only follow a court order where the home aspect is carefully considered and rarely ignored. 

 

But that is no reason to suppose that action will not follow a conviction for defrauding HMRC.

15 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Does nobody read the consultation apart from me? 

The theory is that if users, such as construction sites among others, are unable to buy rebated fuel for machinery it will encourage them to switch to zero emissions equipment. It is also intended to reduce wastage of fuel ie leaving machines running when not in use.

 

Keith

Red diesel is not cheap, just less expensive. I'd have thought as a nudge theory option this is not likely to have long term impact.

[peterboat]

36 minutes ago, BrumSaint said:

How does making us use white diesel instead of red reduce CO2 emissions?

The cost will make us do less moving in many cases therefore creating less pollution, also new boats won't take the ICE option as in the long run it will be more expensive. We are heading for a zero carbon future quicker than some would like but it's going to happen like it or lump it, just look out to sea wind turbines multiplying daily, same on land plus fields of solar panels with sheep grazing under them, by removing cheap red diesel we force industry to buy cleaner to operate machinery 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Red diesel is not cheap, just less expensive. I'd have thought as a nudge theory option this is not likely to have long term impact.

It is not 'expensive' for NB owners at (what) about £10 per week - a 25% increase only add £2.50 per week and would not have any long term impact.

 

Think about boater using 80-100 litres per hour (yes it is their choice) or construction jobs using 1000's of litres per day (maybe several 100 litres per excavator, + dumpers, + generators etc etc)

[David Mack]

17 hours ago, peterboat said:

I was on one of Finesses electric boats today electric motor beautiful job 10 year warranty as well, thats the motor, battery pack and electronics. Finesse can monitor every electric boat it produces as well [the owner can monitor his boat by phone if he wants] I was well impressed by it. spec wise 65 foot narrowboat 1.5 kw at 3mph,  solar and onboard genny/shoreline for charging, one hour on the genny charges the batteries back up from 5 hours running less/none if its been sunny, genny heats calorifier as well via pipes and immersion heater.

So it still needs a generator to recharge the batteries and to heat the water. Hardly a diesel free boat then.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So it still needs a generator to recharge the batteries and to heat the water. Hardly a diesel free boat then.

 

How would you suggest that batteries should be charged in the 4 or 5 months of insufficienr Sun ?

[Steilsteven]

26 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

As I understand it, removal of a boat that is a home, save for safety reasons, can only follow a court order where the home aspect is carefully considered and rarely ignored. 

 

But that is no reason to suppose that action will not follow a conviction for defrauding HMRC.

Red diesel is not cheap, just less expensive. I'd have thought as a nudge theory option this is not likely to have long term impact.

Large construction sites have diesel delivered in bulk, the price differential of red and white in bulk is considerable.

 

Keith

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Large construction sites have diesel delivered in bulk, the price differential of red and white in bulk is considerable.

 

Keith

 

I am only paying ~40p litre for my 'agricultural red diesel' and that is for batches of only 1000 litres.

[Steilsteven]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I am only paying ~40p litre for my 'agricultural red diesel' and that is for batches of only 1000 litres.

Lucky you.

 

Keith

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Lucky you.

 

Keith

Not really, I filled the boat up (2500 litres) at just over £1 per litre.

[Steilsteven]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not really, I filled the boat up (2500 litres) at just over £1 per litre.

Can't you get a bulk delivery to your boat?

 

Keith

[GUMPY]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

How would you suggest that batteries should be charged in the 4 or 5 months of insufficienr Sun ?

A generator run from an exercise bike ?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Loddon said:

A generator run from an exercise bike ?

 

Like this ?

 

 

 

[David Mack]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

How would you suggest that batteries should be charged in the 4 or 5 months of insufficienr Sun ?

Exactly my point.

Limited boating in the summer months from solar is easily achieved. Year round boating, with long days on the move, keeping the inside of the boat warm, the domestic water hot, and providing hot meals without burning carbon-based fuel is a virtual impossibility for the foreseeable future.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Can't you get a bulk delivery to your boat?

 

Keith

Easily, but then I am using 'illegal' fuel with unpaid (boat propulsion) duty.

 

When buying diesel ( not a few litres for a boat) you have to make a declration to the suppliers as to the use, in my case the declaration is agricultural useage. The sellers then have to make a declaration each month as to where / who they have sold red diesel to.

 

Pulling up alongside a boat and filling it up without chargeing duty would hardly be acceptable under the Duty of Care.

 

The controlled oils are ‘red diesel’ or Marked Gas Oil (MGO), rebated bioblend, kerosene, or Marked Kerosene Oil (MKO) and aviation turbine fuel (Avtur), which is jet fuel made from high-quality kerosene. Dealers have a responsibility to submit monthly returns detailing all sales of controlled oils. The only exceptions are dealers with a low throughput who are approved for annual returns, or dealers solely supplying Avtur or marine fuel. Dealers also have a duty of care to ensure that the oil sold is being put to legitimate use. Dealers registered as suppliers of red diesel for use in private pleasure craft also have a responsibility to charge and account for additional duty on such supplies and to submit quarterly or annual payment returns.

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/hydrocarbon-oils-strategy/hcos2025

[GUMPY]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Like this ?

 

 

 

Exactly ?

It's a pity that towed generators are not more powerful and usable on the cut

https://www.renugen.co.uk/eclectic-energy-sail-gen-towed-water-generator/

[Jerra]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Exactly my point.

Limited boating in the summer months from solar is easily achieved. Year round boating, with long days on the move, keeping the inside of the boat warm, the domestic water hot, and providing hot meals without burning carbon-based fuel is a virtual impossibility for the foreseeable future.

Two thoughts come to mind.

 

1.  Any reduction in emissions is surely to be welcomed even if there are still some things which need carbon based fuels.

 

2.  With regard to year round boating, shock horror, in may not be possible.  Boating along with many things will have to change.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Exactly ?

It's a pity that towed generators are not more powerful and usable on the cut

https://www.renugen.co.uk/eclectic-energy-sail-gen-towed-water-generator/

There are versions of that quite widely used on 'lumpy water' boats, so, that when you stop, the shaft goes up into the vertical position, you change the 'propellor' to a 'wind' prop and you then have a windy driven one.

 

24 hour generation.

[Steilsteven]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Easily, but then I am using 'illegal' fuel with unpaid (boat propulsion) duty.

 

When buying diesel ( not a few litres for a boat) you have to make a declration to the suppliers as to the use, in my case the declaration is agricultural useage. The sellers then have to make a declaration each month as to where / who they have sold red diesel to.

 

Pulling up alongside a boat and filling it up without chargeing duty would hardly be acceptable under the Duty of Care.

 

The controlled oils are ‘red diesel’ or Marked Gas Oil (MGO), rebated bioblend, kerosene, or Marked Kerosene Oil (MKO) and aviation turbine fuel (Avtur), which is jet fuel made from high-quality kerosene. Dealers have a responsibility to submit monthly returns detailing all sales of controlled oils. The only exceptions are dealers with a low throughput who are approved for annual returns, or dealers solely supplying Avtur or marine fuel. Dealers also have a duty of care to ensure that the oil sold is being put to legitimate use. Dealers registered as suppliers of red diesel for use in private pleasure craft also have a responsibility to charge and account for additional duty on such supplies and to submit quarterly or annual payment returns.

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/hydrocarbon-oils-strategy/hcos2025

Yes I'm aware of all of that, I just didn't realise that you were buying 2,500 litres for propulsion only.

Still, at £1 a litre that is cheap isn't it?

 

Keith

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Yes I'm aware of all of that, I just didn't realise that you were buying 2,500 litres for propulsion only.

 

 

At 5 Knots I'm using 5 litres per hour per engine (total 10 litres per hour)

At 8 knots I'm using 12.7 litres per hour per engine (25 litres per hour)

 

On a previous 'lumpy water' boat, on a 600 mile cruise I averaged 1.57 gallons (7 litres) per Mile 

At 3000 RPM I was using 14 gallons (64 litres per hour)

 

8 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Still, at £1 a litre that is cheap isn't it?

 

Its all relative.

[Momac]

35 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Can't you get a bulk delivery to your boat?

It is exactly this practice that the government are trying to prohibit.

[Dr Bob]

27 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Exactly ?

It's a pity that towed generators are not more powerful and usable on the cut

https://www.renugen.co.uk/eclectic-energy-sail-gen-towed-water-generator/

We had one of those on our lumpy water boat. Really good once you get over 5 knots, but not good if you are going downwind round Ratray head in a force 8 at night and cant get the damn thing out of the water. We were surfing down the waves at 12-14 knots and generating circa 30A+. To stop boiling the batteries, all the lights were on, the fridge, the radar, the plotter, the AIS......every damn thing we could find to use power up!