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Red is not dead, - yet


Tracy D'arth

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https://www.crownoil.co.uk/news/red-diesel-ban-2020-budget/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=eligibility&utm_content=cu

 

There will still be red diesel after 2022, but we will have to not use it for propulsion, but how anyone will police it is another matter.

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2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

https://www.crownoil.co.uk/news/red-diesel-ban-2020-budget/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=eligibility&utm_content=cu

 

There will still be red diesel after 2022, but we will have to not use it for propulsion, but how anyone will police it is another matter.

Presumably in the same way they police its use in road vehicles (or did when I was connected to agriculture) random dipping of tanks, by HMRC.

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I keep a record of my diesel propulsion via engine hour counter, it helps a lot as I need to know how much I've used, but of course, in winter, I use engine to charge batteries, I won't be moving for a month, so no diesel for propulsion, but I have to give my previous usage, not my future guesstimate.

and while I do have a good grasp, it's my records, and anyone could  just fill them in, I think the problem is the marina only wanting to sell red, red or nothing.

7 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Presumably in the same way they police its use in road vehicles (or did when I was connected to agriculture) random dipping of tanks, by HMRC.

But I run the engine for battery charging, not propulsion, my tank will often have red diesel, even if i buy white from ASDA., 

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5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I keep a record of my diesel propulsion via engine hour counter, it helps a lot as I need to know how much I've used, but of course, in winter, I use engine to charge batteries, I won't be moving for a month, so no diesel for propulsion, but I have to give my previous usage, not my future guesstimate.

and while I do have a good grasp, it's my records, and anyone could  just fill them in, I think the problem is the marina only wanting to sell red, red or nothing.

But I run the engine for battery charging, not propulsion, my tank will often have red diesel, even if i buy white from ASDA., 

What a shame, me too! Oh well we tried.

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11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

But I run the engine for battery charging, not propulsion, my tank will often have red diesel, even if i buy white from ASDA., 

The problem with that is if they treat things, as they did when I had anything to do with agriculture, any trace of red in a tank not entitled to use red was automatically guilty.   I suspect if they do keep red it will be a case of "that's your propulsion tank so it should have no red in it".

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33 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I keep a record of my diesel propulsion via engine hour counter, it helps a lot as I need to know how much I've used, but of course, in winter, I use engine to charge batteries, I won't be moving for a month, so no diesel for propulsion, but I have to give my previous usage, not my future guesstimate.

and while I do have a good grasp, it's my records, and anyone could  just fill them in, I think the problem is the marina only wanting to sell red, red or nothing.

But I run the engine for battery charging, not propulsion, my tank will often have red diesel, even if i buy white from ASDA., 

If you only have one tank then you MUST buy white.

Thats the rules.

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1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

Our propulsion tanks will all be stained red for a very long time to come. It is unenforceable, and it won't be enforced for narrowboats any more than it is at present -- which is to say, not at all.

 

 

There will be some leeway given, it said so in the consultation, and over time the red will be diluted more and more.

You can take a chance if you wish, just like many do with road vehicles and get away with it but those who do get caught lose their vehicles I understand.

Will there be supplies of red available in small enough quantities for you to get away with it anyway?

 

Keith

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1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

Our propulsion tanks will all be stained red for a very long time to come. It is unenforceable, and it won't be enforced for narrowboats any more than it is at present -- which is to say, not at all.

 

 

If the fuel looks more than a bit red, they will take a sample and analysis will show the percentage of marker present, so if you claim it’s ‘honestly mainly white’ and they can show it’s more like 80% red, then you know what happens next.

 

I predict they will wait a year or so, then dip a few tanks, prosecute a few boaters so word goes round, then no more checks for another year or two.

 

it may even become impossible to buy red without an account.  Time will tell

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21 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

There will be some leeway given, it said so in the consultation, and over time the red will be diluted more and more.

You can take a chance if you wish, just like many do with road vehicles and get away with it but those who do get caught lose their vehicles I understand.

Will there be supplies of red available in small enough quantities for you to get away with it anyway?

 

Keith

Some do lose their vehicles, its not automatic. But I very much doubt that you would lose your home if its a boat.

Enforcement will be farcical.

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24 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

>>You can take a chance if you wish<<

 

?

 

What do you suggest, that I flush out my tank with "white" diesel?

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Chewbacka said:

>>so if you claim it’s ‘honestly mainly white’ and they can show it’s more like 80% red,<<

 

I wasn't suggesting that, I was pointing out that the gain to HMRC would not outweigh the cost, so they won't be mithering us in the first place. Besides which, if we haven't been anywhere (Covid) no offence has been committed.

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2 hours ago, Jerra said:

The problem with that is if they treat things, as they did when I had anything to do with agriculture, any trace of red in a tank not entitled to use red was automatically guilty.   I suspect if they do keep red it will be a case of "that's your propulsion tank so it should have no red in it".

That is how it stands in leisure boating in Europe.

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Taxes are going to go up generally after the pandemic and I would not be surprised if tax collection will be enforced more vigorously. I would certainly not bank on leniency if after a suitable transition period a boat is found to have red diesel  feeding its propulsion engine. 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Taxes are going to go up generally after the pandemic and I would not be surprised if tax collection will be enforced more vigorously. I would certainly not bank on leniency if after a suitable transition period a boat is found to have red diesel  feeding its propulsion engine. 

 

 

 

Unless they mandate a cut off date, and require tanks to be cleaned, this will be unenforceable, and any prosecution would require an admission. Without that it would be impossible to prove the case.

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When we were stopped buying red in Belgium in 2006 we obviously made sure tank was full at the end of the year. Thereafter always kept receipts for white (road diesel) to show the customs. The rule then was that red could be used for heating and generators but the tank with red could not have a connection to engine.

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1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

I wasn't suggesting that, I was pointing out that the gain to HMRC would not outweigh the cost, so they won't be mithering us in the first place.

It is estimated that illegal use of red diesel on roads costs the country £100,000,000 in lost taxes.   HMRC do already have mobile teams which do pot checks by the roadside.  These teams could either visit marinas or have a pleasant day sat in the sun stopping passing boats.

 

I doubt as they already have teams out doing this job the extra cost of "mithering us" would be much.  I also suspect they would "jump on this" in the early stages to prevent it becoming  habit.

 

Just my opinion other opinions are available.

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3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

It is estimated that illegal use of red diesel on roads costs the country £100,000,000 in lost taxes.   HMRC do already have mobile teams which do pot checks by the roadside.  These teams could either visit marinas or have a pleasant day sat in the sun stopping passing boats.

 

I doubt as they already have teams out doing this job the extra cost of "mithering us" would be much.  I also suspect they would "jump on this" in the early stages to prevent it becoming  habit.

 

Just my opinion other opinions are available.

The problem they would have is different. With cars there is no excuse, no get out clause. If red is in the tank your done. In boats it is not clear cut like that, and would require an admission under questioning to prove their case. Moral of the story, either don’t break the law, or if you do, don’t admit anything.

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7 minutes ago, Phil. said:

The problem they would have is different. With cars there is no excuse, no get out clause. If red is in the tank your done. In boats it is not clear cut like that, and would require an admission under questioning to prove their case. Moral of the story, either don’t break the law, or if you do, don’t admit anything.

Why isn't it clear cut?   All they have to do is specify that if you only have one tank it must not contain red.  Just like Belgium.

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In the consultation papers did they not say that it was expected that it would take years for all trace of red to disappear from canal boats tanks and we should keep receipts to prove that we had bought white after the cut off point? 

 

haggis

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I’ve got one tank and a diesel stove, I thought it would be a one pump at marina and a declaration at time of purchase of what % is propulsion and what is heating and taxes paid appropriately then. It’s how I do it now and tax man isn’t loosing out. I thought anything that goes to engine regardless if it to turn prop or charge batteries means it’s engine=propulsion, stove= heating 

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I imagine that, like road vehicles, they won't take a sample from the tank.

They crack a union at the engine end of the line.

That way sleeving the filler tube and putting white diesel in the sealed sleeve, and/or partitioning the tank to hold a gallon of white attached to the external filler while filling the remainder with red via access under the back seat, are just old tricks that no longer work.

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8 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Why isn't it clear cut?   All they have to do is specify that if you only have one tank it must not contain red.  Just like Belgium.

Because at present they don’t intended to force tanks to be cleaned, so a boater could claim the red was in the tank from a date before it became unlawful to use it. To successfully prosecute you, they would have to prove otherwise, and this would be virtually impossible, unless you were silly enough to admit it during questioning.

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