Battery bank under the stairs

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

But does this meet the regulations, especially for battery banks inside the living space?

 

Yes, providing the living space has high level ventilation - see Post #7.

[blackrose]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Joyce was built with GEL batteries and no engine room ventilation I added it when I fitted the Tractions

But most people will need engine room ventilation anyway otherwise their diesel engines won't work very well.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Yes, providing the living space has high level ventilation - see Post #7.

For this purpose, do normal mushroom vents count as sufficient, or aren't they big enough? And surely the amount of ventilation should depend on the size of the battery bank?

 

Actually, just reading the regs the battery ventilation rules don't apply to sealed batteries like AGM/gel, only need whatever the manufacturer specifies...

Edited October 30, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

But most people will need engine room ventilation anyway otherwise their diesel engines won't work very well.

It got air from the gaps in the engine covers

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, peterboat said:

And you need less of them, Its where my LifePo4s live ventilation isnt an issue of course, but it does keep them nice and warm which is  plus when charging

 

I haven't been following the cheap lithuim battery thread but isn't keeping them above freezing point an essential for LifePo4s? My understanding is that if you charge them below zero ambient temperatures you can kill them very quickly?

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

It got air from the gaps in the engine covers

Assuming there are gaps in the engine covers. Mine are fairly well closed with no gaps.

[Murflynn]

On 29/10/2020 at 16:17, The swede said:

 

Do I have to have sealed batteries or will it be OK with standard leisure ones.

last time I bought so-called leisure batteries for powering my leccy boat I went on ebay and found that nearly all batteries are now 'calcium technology' and are sealed.

 

even vented batteries only need very basic ventilation, but just to be sure I have fitted a 4" 12v brushless computer fan (about £10 on ebay) that extracts from the battery enclosure to the outside via a duct.  

[peterboat]

20 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I haven't been following the cheap lithuim battery thread but isn't keeping them above freezing point an essential for LifePo4s? My understanding is that if you charge them below zero ambient temperatures you can kill them very quickly?

Assuming there are gaps in the engine covers. Mine are fairly well closed with no gaps.

My leisure LifePo4s live under the step next to the central heating pipes and the Drive batteries on the swim in insulated boxes they dont seem to fall below zero so a non issue really

[blackrose]

49 minutes ago, peterboat said:

My leisure LifePo4s live under the step next to the central heating pipes and the Drive batteries on the swim in insulated boxes they dont seem to fall below zero so a non issue really

A non-issue for you perhaps, but it may be an issue for others which is why I mentioned it.

 

Also I'm not sure we've had a really cold winter for a few years. If we do then it may be an issue for you.

Edited October 30, 2020 by blackrose

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

A non-issue for you perhaps, but it may be an issue for others which is why I mentioned it.

 

Also I'm not sure we've had a really cold winter for a few years. If we do then it may be an issue for you.

Not at all Leisure batteries are heated and drive batteries arnt on charge I leave them at 60% when not using them

[blackrose]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Not at all Leisure batteries are heated and drive batteries arnt on charge I leave them at 60% when not using them

Ok fair enough, but it was enough of an issue for you to have taken those precautions. Very wise.

Edited October 30, 2020 by blackrose

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

build your own battery management system, 

It's not rocket science. You merely need to prevent them over discharging, (too low a voltage), overcharging, (too high a voltage), and charging at too low a temperature, (below about 5C).

 

This guy has it sorted very simply with a Victron Battery Protect, a Victron BMV721 Battery Monitor, a relay, and a temperature sensing cable, (as do I when I get a round tuit on a couple of things  ). He also has second hand Valence batteries like mine and Peters. As a matter of interest, he uses a Victron DC to DC charger to charge them from the alternator, via the lead acid starter battery.

 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

It's not rocket science.

Actually, yes it is. ?

[IanD]

Just now, Richard10002 said:

It's not rocket science. You merely need to prevent them over discharging, (too low a voltage), overcharging, (too high a voltage), and charging at too low a temperature, (below about 5C).

 

This guy has it sorted very simply with a Victron Battery Protect, a Victron BMV721 Battery Monitor, a relay, and a temperature sensing cable, (as do I when I get a round tuit on a couple of things  ). He also has second hand Valence batteries like mine and Peters. As a matter of interest, he uses a Victron DC to DC charger to charge them from the alternator, via the lead acid starter battery.

 

 

 

<sigh> As I keep saying, none of this is difficult if you know what you're doing. The OP obviously doesn't, so unless some knowledgeable Good Samaritan volunteers to build it all for him his only option is to buy "drop-in" lithiums -- which aren't anything of the sort -- or pay a lot for a proper commercial system.

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Actually, yes it is. ?

It can't be I can do it ?

[blackrose]

I think that the OP (and anyone else considering installing lithium batteries) should actually work out whether they really need lithium batteries first. I don't which is why I wouldn't install them. I'm usually on shore power and go away for a couple of weeks/year in summer or as much as work will allow. At those times my 450 amp/hour Trojan lead/acid battery bank can keep me going for 4-5 days without recharging and that's without solar panels. I top up the Trojans a few  times/year and it's no biggie. So I'd just be wasting my money on lithium batteries. If my situation changed and I was CCing or had a mooring without shore power perhaps I'd consider it.

Edited October 30, 2020 by blackrose

[magnetman]

I'm going to get 48v 'Pylontech" batteries, add a Victron MPPT for the solar panels (1kw) and another Victron MPPT to feed the existing lead acid batteries from the 48v unit. 

 

Off grid small boat which gets moved a lot but old fashioned engines without big alternators. And I am going to add a 48v electric pod drive so 48v is essential on board anyway...

 

The Pylontech are like those old separates sound systems. Modular and stackable. 

 

Manufacturer's warranty for 7 years I think it was. 

 

=On board electric sorted, provided that your main power source is not the propulsion engine, which it shouldn't be anyway  yes I know it is in a lot of cases but there are other ways to get power. 

 

Might add a combi inverter charger later on. 

 

Pylontech 3000

 

Nice bit of kit I reckon

 

safe to pull 1.8kw out of it continuous. 

 

£1000! Around 65ah 48v nominal so equivalent to 260ah 12v but life expectancy is rather higher and it's a nice unit to have in the living area whereas a Lead acid block isn't...

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by magnetman
Edit to correct math around capacity and discharge

[Richard10002]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

<sigh> As I keep saying, none of this is difficult if you know what you're doing. The OP obviously doesn't, so unless some knowledgeable Good Samaritan volunteers to build it all for him his only option is to buy "drop-in" lithiums -- which aren't anything of the sort -- or pay a lot for a proper commercial system.

"sigh"    

 

In November last year, I had no idea what I was doing, and was quoted as saying that there was no way I would be fitting Lithium batteries, only a few weeks before 

 

If, like me, he watches a lot of videos, (like this guys, and Will Prowse), he might be able to get up to speed with it. Lead Acid actually require a lot of care if you are to fit them properly, charge them properly, and use them properly. VSR for split charging, Battery monitor for, err... monitoring... best not to let them fall below 50% SOC, and so on.

 

In the video posted above, the safety elements are 3 gizmos, and a couple of wires.

 

I agree that it isnt within everybodys capabilities, but that is no different to the fitting of LA batteries.

[peterboat]

12 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I think that the OP (and anyone else considering installing lithium batteries) should actually work out whether they really need lithium batteries first. I don't which is why I wouldn't install them. I'm usually on shore power and go away for a couple of weeks/year in summer or as much as work will allow. At those times my 450 amp/hour Trojan lead/acid battery bank can keep me going for 4-5 days without recharging and that's without solar panels. I top up the Trojans a few  times/year and it's no biggie. So I'd just be wasting my money on lithium batteries. If my situation changed and I was CCing or had a mooring without shore power perhaps I'd consider it.

I had full traction batteries and have swopped for the lithium, probably same price for new tractions against secondhand LifePo4s.  The lithium are lighter charge faster and will live me out the traction batteries won't. 

Honestly its not worth the bother of fitting semi tractions or tractions against lithium batteries at this moment in time 

[TheBiscuits]

19 hours ago, dmr said:

Oooh  send us a picture.

 

Of the batteries or the hernia? 

 

To fit in the battery rack they need to be rotated 90° at full arm's stretch, with about 2mm clearance down the side of the engine and you have to shut the engine room door with your backside while trying to do it.

 

They've been cruelly abused for two and a half years now, and still work although they have lost some unknown percentage of their capacity.  

 

I'm just hoping they keep going for a few more years yet, as I'm not looking forward to swapping them again. 

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/enduroline/exv270/

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

3 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

It's not rocket science.

[dmr]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

I'm going to get 48v 'Pylontech" batteries, add a Victron MPPT for the solar panels (1kw) and another Victron MPPT to feed the existing lead acid batteries from the 48v unit. 

 

Off grid small boat which gets moved a lot but old fashioned engines without big alternators. And I am going to add a 48v electric pod drive so 48v is essential on board anyway...

 

The Pylontech are like those old separates sound systems. Modular and stackable. 

 

Manufacturer's warranty for 7 years I think it was. 

 

=On board electric sorted, provided that your main power source is not the propulsion engine, which it shouldn't be anyway  yes I know it is in a lot of cases but there are other ways to get power. 

 

Might add a combi inverter charger later on. 

 

Pylontech 3000

 

Nice bit of kit I reckon

 

safe to pull 1.8kw out of it continuous. 

 

£1000! Around 65ah 48v nominal so equivalent to 260ah 12v but life expectancy is rather higher and it's a nice unit to have in the living area whereas a Lead acid block isn't...

 

 

That looks very interesting and that's quite a good price.

Early days but I am thinking of doing something very similar to you (but not electric propulsion), will maybe charge the Lithium off mains (via the Travel Power) or maybe a DC-DC charger, then use the lithium via another DC-DC to finish off charging the lead acid bank and provide initial house power with the Lead Acids only taking over only when the lithiums are discharged.

48 volt might even be an advantage as can locate further away without needing thick cables.

 

................Dave

[Detling]

6 hours ago, IanD said:

All true. Also still a lot more expensive for a given capacity than LA unless you buy second-hand lithium cells or (possibly B-grade) ones off ebay and build your own battery management system, like several people on here have done. If you want to buy a commercial ready-to-install system using new cells, lithiums still cost a lot (but you do get a lot of advantages).

But they should last at least 4 or 5 times the life of lead acid batteries. The fast charge and no need to get fully charged most days will save you fuel, many people say they half their generator/engine charging hours and that can easily add up to tens of pounds a week in winter, in summer the solar which, I would recommend, will do the charging and save all the fuel cost.

As you are talking of a sailaway the BSS regulations are only one set of rules to follow the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) rules are more comprehensive and detailed. Since the 2018 changes you need to follow them.

[dmr]

25 minutes ago, Detling said:

But they should last at least 4 or 5 times the life of lead acid batteries. The fast charge and no need to get fully charged most days will save you fuel, many people say they half their generator/engine charging hours and that can easily add up to tens of pounds a week in winter, in summer the solar which, I would recommend, will do the charging and save all the fuel cost.

As you are talking of a sailaway the BSS regulations are only one set of rules to follow the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) rules are more comprehensive and detailed. Since the 2018 changes you need to follow them.

Not convinced about this, comparing like for like,proper lithiums with proper lead acids (Trojans etc) its only 2:1 or maybe just 3:1, and I also don't believe you only need half the amp-hours with lithium. But, lithium are very attractive and when the price falls just a bit they will win hands down.

 

Not into all this RCD stuff but suspect its easier to meet with Lithiums if EuroRules are your thing?

 

...................Dave

[magnetman]

10 hours ago, dmr said:

That looks very interesting and that's quite a good price.

Early days but I am thinking of doing something very similar to you (but not electric propulsion), will maybe charge the Lithium off mains (via the Travel Power) or maybe a DC-DC charger, then use the lithium via another DC-DC to finish off charging the lead acid bank and provide initial house power with the Lead Acids only taking over only when the lithiums are discharged.

48 volt might even be an advantage as can locate further away without needing thick cables.

 

................Dave

The way to transfer power from the 48v bank to the domestic 12v bank is to use a MPPT controller. Victron smartsolar 75/15 would be ideal. 

 

The 48v is the equivalent to the solar input and the output, up to 15a, goes to the 12v system. That particular one is a little under £100 and the current limit can be set via smartphone, as can the charging voltages and you can also set an equalisation manually or auto. 

 

I reckon done right the lead acid domestics could end up being very pampered batteries and last a bit longer than they usually would. 

 

 

ETA this is an interesting read. 

 

https://www.mby.com/gear/new-gear-triskel-marine-launches-automatic-electrical-generator-integrel-system-100495

 

And this 

 

https://www.zwerfcat.nl/en/lithium-hybrid.html

Edited October 31, 2020 by magnetman

[dmr]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

The way to transfer power from the 48v bank to the domestic 12v bank is to use a MPPT controller. Victron smartsolar 75/15 would be ideal. 

 

The 48v is the equivalent to the solar input and the output, up to 15a, goes to the 12v system. That particular one is a little under £100 and the current limit can be set via smartphone, as can the charging voltages and you can also set an equalisation manually or auto. 

 

I reckon done right the lead acid domestics could end up being very pampered batteries and last a bit longer than they usually would. 

 

 

ETA this is an interesting read. 

 

https://www.mby.com/gear/new-gear-triskel-marine-launches-automatic-electrical-generator-integrel-system-100495

 

And this 

 

https://www.zwerfcat.nl/en/lithium-hybrid.html

I think you might be are correct, I already have the Victron on my solar and have played with the settings via the phone. I was thinking of the DC DC device but the MPPT should be ok...i bet the MPPT algorithm gets confused ?. I would need the 30 or even 50 amp version as I want the option to equalise whilst also meeting domestic demand.  I already have 6 Trojans but would like a bit more and Lithium is almost certainly better, among other things there are far more options as to where they might go. Charging via TravelPower is probably best as this will not compete with charging the Trojans, but will compete with the washing machine.

 

This scheme would give me a bigger battery capacity and avoid the very long engine runs when we go right to 100% and equalise.

 

..............Dave