Battery bank under the stairs

[The swede]

I have just ordered my 57' narrowboat and are doing some planning. I would like to have the service battery bank positioned under the stairs to free up space in the engine room (for the calorifier etc) and to keep the weight low in the boat. I plan to build a proper battery box with ventilation up to a vent in the cockpit bulkhead. Has it been done before and will it pass BSS?

Do I have to have sealed batteries or will it be OK with standard leisure ones.

[BEngo]

Don't know about under stairs particularly, but a proper battery box with adequate sized vent outside should pass BSS.

 

I suggest you talk to the examiner you plan to use to see if he has any 'suggestions'.  For example I would suggest  'IN' ventilation as well as 'OUT', though only 'OUT' is essential.

 

More importantly make sure that you can get at the batteries to top up  (if not sealed)  and that you can lift them out easily, without major dismantling.

 

N

 

 

 

[dmr]

If you have enough money to buy a brand new boat then I would seriously look at lithiums, this avoids the need for ventilation and access for maintenance etc. You can specify a suitable charging system at the same time. Its a bit easier to fit lithium from new rather than upgrading a lead-acid system later.

 

.................Dave

[Mike Tee]

I think the first question to be asked is, what is behind the stairs that may need to be accessed - bit of a sod to have to move all the batteries if that is your only access to the weedhatch for example.

[The swede]

Thank you for the input. I was planning to have it in front of the engine room bulkhead, under the stair(case), so easy access - even when it is raining. Benefit is that is also work as an extra sound barrier to the living area.I will have a chat with a BSS examiner before I instruct the yard where I like the battery shelf to go (unless I keep it in the engine room after all). It's a Sailaway - delivery in january, so a lot of planning at the moment and the spring is pretty booked with getting it all in... ?

 

Regarding Lithium batteries - yes could be an option, but it's like buying a flat screen TV, you just know that it will be half the price in a year or so, so i am not sure i feel it is value for money - yet.

[OldGoat]

Peeps spend oodles of money on a new  boat / hull and then fiddle about with squashing devices in with poor / no reasonable access.

Batteries need reasonable access for topping up and / or occasional checking and that applies to  whatever you eventually buy.

I see - nw I'm part way through this rant that you are considering putting them in the engine room - that's better (provided that you enclose them and ensure reasonable access.

 FWIW - mine are in front of the engine under the step-down (but run the whole width of the boat - as I have over 50 individual cells). No inspector has queried the location (methinks they were frightened with such a large array.

 

end of rant.

 

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, BEngo said:

Don't know about under stairs particularly, but a proper battery box with adequate sized vent outside should pass BSS.

 

But note also that the BSS says:

 

"NOTE – ventilation pathways into accommodation spaces having fixed high‐level ventilation or into canopied areas are acceptable."

 

So you don't actually need specfic battery ventilation to the outside.

[system 4-50]

4 hours ago, The swede said:

Has it been done before and will it pass BSS?

If you're having a sailaway built I would strongly recommend that you study the BSS guide from end to end.

[dmr]

I will say this again but more clearly,  either put the batteries where you have good access and good ventilation (assuming you are the sort of person who likes topping up batteries)  or fit lithiums, and if there is even a slight concern about ventilation then fit lithiums..

 

..........Dave

[Bee]

Ventilation is important, I think (someone will correct me if I am wrong) that drilling or cutting holes I the lower part of the box is OK, I have done this. Hydrogen is lighter than air and tends to go bang quite spectacularly (think airships) so you need a good sized duct out of the top of the box. I used various cooker hood fittings to duct the box to a good sized vent outside. Personally I think keeping batteries inside is a reasonable plan, keeps them and their cables dry so small currents do not stray around the tops and they should not freeze if it gets extremely cold, flat batteries freeze.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Bee

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Another thing to consider with batteries is the weight and the effect this has on trim. Mine are in the under deck engine room. They started out on the port side swim, but were moved to the starboard side swim. to correct a considerable port side down list my boat had. If they are under the stern steps area, then you could have the option of moving them to correct any list on the boat, once the majority of the fit out is done. A single typical 110Ahr battery weighs around 25kg, so the effect on side to side trim is appreciable. Batteries need to be fixed down, or otherwise restrained from moving, see the BSS for details, but within that, allowing the option to easily move them can be planned in from the start. Another advantage of using the under-steps area is that it would be much easier to lift batteries in and out, for fitting and replacement. Many engine hole placements make handling 25kg batteries a spine mangling exercise!

Jen

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Many engine hole placements make handling 25kg batteries a spine mangling exercise!

 

Wuss.

 

My batteries are 60 kilos each, and I learned some new (medical!) words after installing them ...

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Wuss.

 

My batteries are 60 kilos each, and I learned some new (medical!) words after installing them ...

Oooh  send us a picture. Mine are right behind the engine and getting to the far ones is a right back ache, and that's just to top them up. I really can see a lot of advantages with Lithiums, including the lower weight, but would hate to invest in batteries that might last longer than me.

 

Noticed this week that the capacity is falling off a bit, maybe its the cold, or maybe because the older ones are now over 5 years old, Trojans are good.....and a lot less than 60kg.

 

.................Dave

[peterboat]

16 hours ago, dmr said:

If you have enough money to buy a brand new boat then I would seriously look at lithiums, this avoids the need for ventilation and access for maintenance etc. You can specify a suitable charging system at the same time. Its a bit easier to fit lithium from new rather than upgrading a lead-acid system later.

 

.................Dave

And you need less of them, Its where my LifePo4s live ventilation isnt an issue of course, but it does keep them nice and warm which is  plus when charging

[peterboat]

15 hours ago, The swede said:

Thank you for the input. I was planning to have it in front of the engine room bulkhead, under the stair(case), so easy access - even when it is raining. Benefit is that is also work as an extra sound barrier to the living area.I will have a chat with a BSS examiner before I instruct the yard where I like the battery shelf to go (unless I keep it in the engine room after all). It's a Sailaway - delivery in january, so a lot of planning at the moment and the spring is pretty booked with getting it all in... ?

 

Regarding Lithium batteries - yes could be an option, but it's like buying a flat screen TV, you just know that it will be half the price in a year or so, so i am not sure i feel it is value for money - yet.

Honestly they are brilliant better by far than any LA, they charge fast and to a higher voltage, giving you a greater capacity for the space they occupy, do it now its a no brainer also you put in the correct charging system at the same time

Edited October 30, 2020 by peterboat

[David Mack]

Can any the Litthium enthusiasts point me at somewhere where I can buy an off-the-shelf setup of batteries and the associated control gizmos?

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Can any the Litthium enthusiasts point me at somewhere where I can buy an off-the-shelf setup of batteries and the associated control gizmos?

eBay item no 303099301011 sorry don’t know how to post a proper link 

[dmr]

56 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Can any the Litthium enthusiasts point me at somewhere where I can buy an off-the-shelf setup of batteries and the associated control gizmos?

I have no first hand experience yet but am learning about this stuff now. Many of the batteries have their own built in control electronics so should just go straight in as long as your alternator voltage is suitable.  Because they have built in electronics I suspect its more cost effective to get one big one that two or three smaller ones.

 

There looks to be about a 2:1 price difference between top brands like Victron/Mastervolt and the lesser known brands, I would like to know a bit more about this.

 

Does anybody here have real hands on experience of these "drop in replacements"????? Do they in reality need additional control devices?

 

This is 300Ah for £2,000 from a company I have never heard of:

 

https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/store/product/6-ks-lt300b-12v-300ah-bluetooth-high-power-lifepo4-lithium-leisure-battery

 

even cheaper stuff on eBay

 

£3,600 for 300Ah Victron

 

...............Dave

[peterboat]

20 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

eBay item no 303099301011 sorry don’t know how to post a proper link 

This is just a very expensive battery! easier and cheaper ways to do it exist

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Can any the Litthium enthusiasts point me at somewhere where I can buy an off-the-shelf setup of batteries and the associated control gizmos?

Dr Bob on his new boat is using a sterling battery to battery charger and that is the cheapest way to do it that wont invalidate the warranty on a new engine, no mods to alternators fit and forget really maybe put a low voltage cut off   or alarm but simples

[IanD]

18 hours ago, Bee said:

Ventilation is important, I think (someone will correct me if I am wrong) that drilling or cutting holes I the lower part of the box is OK, I have done this. Hydrogen is lighter than air and tends to go bang quite spectacularly (think airships) so you need a good sized duct out of the top of the box. I used various cooker hood fittings to duct the box to a good sized vent outside. Personally I think keeping batteries inside is a reasonable plan, keeps them and their cables dry so small currents do not stray around the tops and they should not freeze if it gets extremely cold, flat batteries freeze.

What do the BSS regs say about ventilation for gel/AGM LA batteries? They shouldn't ever vent any hydrogen -- at least, unless you grossly overcharge them at a high current...

[IanD]

4 hours ago, peterboat said:

Honestly they are brilliant better by far than any LA, they charge fast and to a higher voltage, giving you a greater capacity for the space they occupy, do it now its a no brainer also you put in the correct charging system at the same time

All true. Also still a lot more expensive for a given capacity than LA unless you buy second-hand lithium cells or (possibly B-grade) ones off ebay and build your own battery management system, like several people on here have done. If you want to buy a commercial ready-to-install system using new cells, lithiums still cost a lot (but you do get a lot of advantages).

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

What do the BSS regs say about ventilation for gel/AGM LA batteries? They shouldn't ever vent any hydrogen -- at least, unless you grossly overcharge them at a high current...

Joyce was built with GEL batteries and no engine room ventilation I added it when I fitted the Tractions

[IanD]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

I have no first hand experience yet but am learning about this stuff now. Many of the batteries have their own built in control electronics so should just go straight in as long as your alternator voltage is suitable.  Because they have built in electronics I suspect its more cost effective to get one big one that two or three smaller ones.

 

There looks to be about a 2:1 price difference between top brands like Victron/Mastervolt and the lesser known brands, I would like to know a bit more about this.

 

Does anybody here have real hands on experience of these "drop in replacements"????? Do they in reality need additional control devices?

 

This is 300Ah for £2,000 from a company I have never heard of:

 

https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/store/product/6-ks-lt300b-12v-300ah-bluetooth-high-power-lifepo4-lithium-leisure-battery

 

even cheaper stuff on eBay

 

£3,600 for 300Ah Victron

 

...............Dave

"Drop-in replacements" for boats are very often far from that. Read this for some good background information.

 

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

 

Quote:

 

WARNING / DIY BUILDS:

I do not believe LiFePO4 is ready for mass DIY prime time builds. Read with caution, and especially focus on the things that you don’t want to hear rather than only what you want to hear. Once you are done reading this, and it makes sense to you, then please spend another few months reading everything you can including every single LiFePO4 white paper you can get your hands on.

While this article is meant to be very basic, and get you a basic level of understanding of LFP, the science side of it matters too. We strongly recommend that you also read Eric Bretscher’s site for the science side of LFP:

Nordkyn Design LiFePO4

With this article, and Eric’s information, you’ll be well on your way to understanding how to use a LiFePo4 marine system without ruining it prematurely.

Edited October 30, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

All true. Also still a lot more expensive for a given capacity than LA unless you buy second-hand lithium cells or (possibly B-grade) ones off ebay and build your own battery management system, like several people on here have done. If you want to buy a commercial ready-to-install system using new cells, lithiums still cost a lot (but you do get a lot of advantages).

20 - 80 % charging routine keeps the batteries safe Ian and you are right secondhand cells are the way to go

[IanD]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Joyce was built with GEL batteries and no engine room ventilation I added it when I fitted the Tractions

But does this meet the regulations, especially for battery banks inside the living space?