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CanalNewbie20

Help - survey returned

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Hello All

I need advise, I am just in the process of buying a widebeam and after having the survey done was told by the brokerage

that everything is ok just needs to be blackened , which i knew about, however , i have since spoken to the sguy who carried out the survey and there are quite a few problems , the Bow Thruster doesnt work , it needs 10 new anodes, there isnt any Hin or manufactures plates , plus as it comes with a mooring in a Marina it costs more , which I accept , there is also rust in the Bow Locker which needs to be fixed . I am going to go back to the brokerage with a copy of the survey and see what they say , what would everyone else do ?

Worried CanalNewbie20

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, CanalNewbie20 said:

Hello All

I need advise, I am just in the process of buying a widebeam and after having the survey done was told by the brokerage

that everything is ok just needs to be blackened , which i knew about, however , i have since spoken to the sguy who carried out the survey and there are quite a few problems , the Bow Thruster doesnt work , it needs 10 new anodes, there isnt any Hin or manufactures plates , plus as it comes with a mooring in a Marina it costs more , which I accept , there is also rust in the Bow Locker which needs to be fixed . I am going to go back to the brokerage with a copy of the survey and see what they say , what would everyone else do ?

Worried CanalNewbie20

 

I can't remember the year (I think 1998) that a boat needed a HiN number, but it would help others that do know, if you state the year of manufacture of the boat. A mooring shouldn't effect the value of a boat. No doubt, if you were to keep the mooring, the fee would be paid to the marina in the usual manner and sorted out through a contract you take out with a marina for the mooring. Is the mooring part of the sale and gives you exclusive rights to the mooring? 

 

Rust can be superficial or serious, and all stations in between, so it's difficult to comment on the rust. The anodes are no big deal, but are obviously a cost to replace. If the bow thruster problem has not been previously mentioned, it is cause to haggle over the price. The bowthruster problem may be serious or very simple. But in any event, you only have a potential bowthruster that is no use to you. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Higgs

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Hello Higgs

Thank you for your reply , the boat was completed in 2013, but there isnt any proof of this. I will indeed haggle price over Bow Thruster, but I am just worried there isnt the Hull ID number. 

If i go ahead with the sale then I intend to get in writing that the boat stays in that mooring as this was the deal breaker !!! Its such a beautiful boat , I love her already ! 

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15 minutes ago, CanalNewbie20 said:

Hello Higgs

Thank you for your reply , the boat was completed in 2013, but there isnt any proof of this. I will indeed haggle price over Bow Thruster, but I am just worried there isnt the Hull ID number. 

If i go ahead with the sale then I intend to get in writing that the boat stays in that mooring as this was the deal breaker !!! Its such a beautiful boat , I love her already ! 

 

You must not get too 'emotional' at this stage. For a boat of that age, there should be a booklet of information with it. There should be a HiN number. If your surveyor could not find one, ask the seller or broker to locate it. Others with a better understanding will be along - it's still a bit early in the day. 

 

It is a good thing that you have the promise of a mooring, but it should not effect the price of the boat, unless you have some sale value in the mooring should you leave it.  

 

Who are the builders of the boat?

 

😊

 

 

Edited by Higgs

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A couple of early thoughts - your surveyor should be your source of sound advice here that's what you paid him for - was he recommended by the boatyard??

 

Paperwork is essential with a boat of that age as is quite a lot of general knowledge - do you mind saying what price range we are dealing with??

 

The mooring is irrelevant unless you can pass it on for value if you leave/sell which if its in a marina is unlikely - where in the country are we talking about 

 

Get quotes to sort bowthruster and either get the vendor to sort it or better get the right money off then sort yourself with a proper tradesman then you have some comeback in 3 months time if it goes wrong.

 

If it needs 10 anodes it probably needs blacking and again what has the surveyor said about the rust and its remedies

 

I am concerned from here that the surveyor hasn't answered these questions for you ...............

 

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It sounds to me as if you did not commission the survey, but the survey was done on behalf of the broker as a 'sellers survey' is this the case?

You MUST have your own survey conducted as a survey produced by the seller can be a little 'economical' with the facts and if you buy the boat only a survey in your name (and paid for by you) has any legal standing.

 

"i have since spoken to the sguy who carried out the survey and there are quite a few problems"

 

If the survey was conducted on your behalf you should have the full written report not just 'spoken to the surveyor'

 

Have I misunderstood the situation ?

 

 

 

If it was built in 2013 (or anytime post 1998) by a commercial boat builder it must by Law comply with the RCD requirements and have a HIN and various other documentation.

 

BUT

 

If it was a 'home build' it could have nothing.

 

Can you provide a link to the broker / boat details ?

What is it being claimed as being ?

Who was it allegedly built by ?

 

etc etc

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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Rust in bow locker and non working bowthruster could well be connected if they are in the same space...especially if theres a hole in the bowthruster tube......quite possible even after 7years as several boat builders do NOT protect the tube before launch.

If it DOES need 10 anodes, these should be put on at the same time as the blacking, as otherwise, your boat is not fully protected, AND you will have an additional cost of lift out and welding them on in the near future.

 

The broker probably just wants to get it back in the water and take your money as fast as possible.

The surveyor(if you have paid them), should have recommended a guide price without the work done, or a price IF his recommendations were carried out.

Fall out of love with the boat for 24 hours, get your sensible hat on and dont take crap from the broker.

 

 

  • Greenie 2

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Yes, all of the above ^^^^^

 

Edit: If the bow gas locker design is anything like most widebeams and narrowboats, the rust on the floor occurs because water splashes through the scuppers when the boat is on the move. If the boat is moving faster on rivers those scuppers may be below the wave heights from the wake of passing boats. So essentially you should think of it as a wet locker. As long as the corrosion on the floor is relatively superficial you need to get everything out and find someone small to get in there with an angle grinder and wire wheels. It's not a pleasant job in a confined space. Once back to bare metal I put down 3 coats of Jotamastic 87 in mine so hopefully I'll never have to do it again. I then laid down some of those rubber scraper mats with holes in them from Wilko so that the gas bottles don't damage the paint.

Edited by blackrose

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Please please please take the advice that you're being given. You are new to the boat world and there are a number of red flags in your post that would have me walking backwards! Not least that the broker said everything was o.k. and the boat just needed blacking. Clearly not telling you the truth. That's enough to have me wondering what else could be wrong (or seriously wrong) with the boat that the surveyor hasn't covered. And the promise of the boat staying in the mooring sounds very very strange AND that the boat's price takes into account a mooring in a Marina??

 

Do let the Forum know where this all is geographically ... you'll get much better support and help. And maybe even someone would volunteer to go with you to have a look at the boat?

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It sounds to me as if you did not commission the survey, but the survey was done on behalf of the broker as a 'sellers survey' is this the case?

 

 

This is the most important question for the OP. If you're spending upwards of £70K and know little about boats you must commission your own independent survey. Personally I wouldn't use the broker's recommended surveyor for this. 

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When I bought my boat I came on here to ask advice much the same as you are doing. Contrary to some of the advice given I was happy to trust the independent seller who recommended a surveyor, I was present when the survey was done and I was confident the surveyor had done a honest job, picking up some odd minor bits here and there which the seller corrected.

 

However...if the survey had gone anything like yours has and I had previously been told 'everything is done just needs blacking' I would be very very skeptical. I would immediately start considering that there should be a significant price reduction and I would be commissioning my own survey. I'm generally quite bold with taking risks, happy to assess the situation and go with my gut on things, more so than the advice that is generally given on here...but on this one...I would be SUPER cautious.

 

And final point, as others have said, try not to get emotionally attached. Decisions of the heart hurt the wallet.

 

 

  • Greenie 2

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20 minutes ago, sirweste said:

When I bought my boat I came on here to ask advice much the same as you are doing. Contrary to some of the advice given I was happy to trust the independent seller who recommended a surveyor, I was present when the survey was done and I was confident the surveyor had done a honest job, picking up some odd minor bits here and there which the seller corrected.

 

However...if the survey had gone anything like yours has and I had previously been told 'everything is done just needs blacking' I would be very very skeptical. I would immediately start considering that there should be a significant price reduction and I would be commissioning my own survey. I'm generally quite bold with taking risks, happy to assess the situation and go with my gut on things, more so than the advice that is generally given on here...but on this one...I would be SUPER cautious.

 

And final point, as others have said, try not to get emotionally attached. Decisions of the heart hurt the wallet.

 

 

 

I agree, and I have not had my last 17 boats surveyed, and so far, not 'caught a cold'.

However to someone new to boats and boating with (possibly) no idea what to look for I'd always suggest, as a minimum, a Hull-survey. 

Particularly in the case of a boat which does not appear to comply with Boat building legislation, and, is said to be OK, but subsequently found not to be.

 

The broker / seller can say pretty much anything as with buying from an individual there is no legal protection and it really is a case of Caveat Emptor.

 

Alarm bells would ring, and as a 'newbie' I'd employ a surveyor, or walk quickly away from the sale.

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I agree, and I have not had my last 17 boats surveyed, and so far, not 'caught a cold'.

The seller was a very nice bloke, he'd only just had the hull painted, there really was no need to get it done. I was only the replies on here that made me have it done. It was sensible to spend £250 when buying a £35k boat though, the advice was correct.

 

The 'just needs blacking', then it turns out it needs loads of things is a huge warning in this case though. I would 100% have a survey done or walk away.

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If you still want the boat, then get your own survey done (say £800-£1000 and get get quotes for the remedial work needed and use the survey to get tne seller to reduce the cost by an appropriate amount.

 

The bow thruster compartment on my boat suffers from condensation in the winter months, unless i leave it open so it can ventilate. 

 

The condensation caused minor rust (easily remedied by a wire brush, Vactan rust stabiliser and Danboline bilge paint and a fair bit of contortionism on my part), the motor to sieze and the battery isolator to corrode (boatyard quoted £1200 for a new motor plus fitting and didn't notice the dodgy isolator). I took the motor to Cox's Auto Electrics in Atherstone, who refurbished it for £400 and replaced it myself along with a new isolator (£50).

 

New anodes are about £40-£50 each but require fitting in a dry dock, say another £200-£300, more if needed for longer to do the blacking.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

 

The bow thruster compartment on my boat suffers from condensation in the winter months, unless i leave it open so it can ventilate. 

 

 

Have you thought about masking off the motor, etc, and sprayfoaming the BT tunnel (and also walls/top of the compartment if required)? 

 

That's what I did on mine 15 years ago and I had no more condensation issues.

Edited by blackrose

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1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

Have you thought about masking off the motor, etc, and sprayfoaming the BT tunnel (and also walls/top of the compartment if required)? 

 

That's what I did on mine 15 years ago and I had no more condensation issues.

 

Good idea. I looked at insulating it with armourflex (too expensive) and gym matting (unknown U value), and last winter, whilst the motor was away being refurbished and the BT locker left open, I noticed there was no condensation.

 

This winter I am going to experiment with a slatted top of BT compartment/bottom of well deck locker, as I have already made it to replace the hexagrip. If that doesnt work I will spray foam it.

 

I presume the stuff that comes in aerosols is what you use?

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If the boat is a widebeam is there a chance it was just used as a cottage so the bow thruster/compartment have just been neglected - maybe dead battery/lack of ventilation etc?  Our BT had a dead battery when we bought the boat and i still have to treat the rust we have.....

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3 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Good idea. I looked at insulating it with armourflex (too expensive) and gym matting (unknown U value), and last winter, whilst the motor was away being refurbished and the BT locker left open, I noticed there was no condensation.

 

This winter I am going to experiment with a slatted top of BT compartment/bottom of well deck locker, as I have already made it to replace the hexagrip. If that doesnt work I will spray foam it.

 

I presume the stuff that comes in aerosols is what you use?

Yes, the fire rated stuff

  • Greenie 1

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It is just possible its a self fit out so no RCD or Hull Identification number, 2013 is longer than 5 years ago. Just a possibility

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9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It is just possible its a self fit out so no RCD or Hull Identification number, 2013 is longer than 5 years ago. Just a possibility

 

I don't really understand that? Mine was a self fit-out 2005 but still came with RCD Annexe 3 (declaration of conformity for partly completed craft) document and HIN numbers welded onto the inside of the baseplate in the engine room and also inside the gas locker.

Edited by blackrose

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11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It is just possible its a self fit out so no RCD or Hull Identification number, 2013 is longer than 5 years ago. Just a possibility

It would have needed a HIN if sold after 2001, even if it was a shell.

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2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I don't really understand that? Mine was a self fit-out 2005 but still came with RCD Annexe 3 declaration of conformity documents and HIN numbers welded onto the inside of the baseplate in the engine room and also inside the gas locker.

Yes it should have a HIN somewhere (or rather, two somewheres) but the hypothetical self-builder could have thrown the Annexe 3 in the bin because he never intended to spend the money on RCD paperwork. It’s more than 5 years ago so perfectly legal to sell. Of course since 2017 hull builders don’t supply an Annexe 3 for a sailaway anyway. 

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