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ivan&alice

Cracked part on heat exchanger Beta 38 / PRM 150 - what's it called?

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I changed the hydraulic hoses connecting my Newage PRM 150 hydraulic gearbox to the heat exchanger on my Beta 38 / BV 1505 engine. Unfortunately when screwing in the male/male adapter, I managed to crack the part that it screws into. Gearbox oil is now slowly oozing out of this crack. Here's a picture with the part in question circled (it has a hex bolt in the centre) and an arrow pointing to the crack at the top, which is just visible.

 

Any idea what this part is called and where I should go to get a replacement? Could I get it from Beta or Newage?

 

part.jpg.4906445537c079a13f7f60271dc5ce69.jpg

 

 


I have no idea what this part is called so I don't know how to order a new one. I can't see this part on the technical drawing I got from here: https://issuu.com/betamarine/docs/beta-35-38-he-prm150-100-10639?e=15614309/62577801

 

image.png.d8c76c0bd633bcedb4d32c7077d95c99.png

 

Any idea what it's called or how to go about replacing it?

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I would call it the oil cooler end cap but that configuration has caused problems. You would probably be better off with a totally separate oil cooler in the return from the skin tank. Putting the cooler in the manifold has lead to overheating of the gearbox.

 

Agree with Goat, I think its a Beta special parts as is the manifold.

Edited by Tony Brooks

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Thanks, "oil cooler end cap" is ideal, that's how I referred to it when speaking to Beta now and they were able to identify the part I needed. Unfortunately they don't do that type of oil cooler anymore (probably because of the overheating problem @Tony Brooks mentioned) and a new oil cooler will cost a bit over 200 GBP.

They're going to have a dig around in the factory for me and see if they can find a replacement part for me, and if not, I'll have to see how I can install the separate oil cooler.

 

I've just gone and spent 60 quid on the new hoses so I'll be a little bit sad if I have to replace the whole thing. Thanks for the help Tony and Goat, will report back once its solved.

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Repair might be possible, rather than replace. Get someone to grind out and weld the crack. Tap the threads again. Depends if it is an aluminium, or iron casting who you can get to fix it.

 

2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Thanks, "oil cooler end cap" is ideal, that's how I referred to it when speaking to Beta now and they were able to identify the part I needed. Unfortunately they don't do that type of oil cooler anymore (probably because of the overheating problem @Tony Brooks mentioned) and a new oil cooler will cost a bit over 200 GBP.

They're going to have a dig around in the factory for me and see if they can find a replacement part for me, and if not, I'll have to see how I can install the separate oil cooler.

 

I've just gone and spent 60 quid on the new hoses so I'll be a little bit sad if I have to replace the whole thing. Thanks for the help Tony and Goat, will report back once its solved.

If you go for a new separate oil cooler, then the same hoses may be usable, or might need an adaptor. Wondering why it cracked in the first place? Did you use ptfe tape? If so, how much? Was it very hard to spanner the threaded fitting in?

Jen

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8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Repair might be possible, rather than replace. Get someone to grind out and weld the crack. Tap the threads again. Depends if it is an aluminium, or iron casting who you can get to fix it.

It looks like a repairable problem to me - are there small engineering shops that would fix something like this? Any idea where to go? I'm in Watford, Herts right now, and heading north up the Grand Union. The leak is annoying and making my engine bay oily but I can still drive the boat.

 

12 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you go for a new separate oil cooler, then the same hoses may be usable, or might need an adaptor.

Me attempting to be clever, I had the hoses made up a little shorter so that there would be less stress on the bend. I had one of the hoses replaced about a year ago and replaced it exactly, but it had quite a sharp bend on it. I lost gear again a few days ago, and I noticed that there was oil leaking from the crimps, so I decided to replace both hoses and change the length so that they would not sit under stress.

 

So unfortunately needing new hoses seems kind of likely if I replace the oil cooler. I'm not even sure where the oil cooler would go.

 

14 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Wondering why it cracked in the first place? Did you use ptfe tape? If so, how much? Was it very hard to spanner the threaded fitting in?

Yes, I used PTFE tape. I didn't the previous time, but when I was unscrewing some of the other connectors I found gunk on the thread that looked like old PTFE so I thought what's the harm. I did 2 or 3 layers. It was rather easy to thread in, and rather easy to crack. I'm not sure but I think I may have put the threaded fitting the wrong way around the first time, and perhaps one side is ever so slightly larger or has a different thread.

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Unfortunately they don't have any in stock, so it's either repair or replace with a new 218 GBP (presumably ex VAT) remote oil cooler...

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3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

It looks like a repairable problem to me - are there small engineering shops that would fix something like this? Any idea where to go? I'm in Watford, Herts right now, and heading north up the Grand Union. The leak is annoying and making my engine bay oily but I can still drive the boat.

A matter of asking round. I'm far up North, so no help at all with suggesting places I'm afraid. Found that taking a lump of broken machine in to one place will usually get you suggestions of places to try if they can't do it themselves, or don't have the time. I'd look for the smaller one to five person independent workshops. Car repair places, especially classic cars might be a good start. They will be used to welding up bits of old car where the parts are no longer available and the metals and tolerances will be similar to your oil cooler.

8 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

So unfortunately needing new hoses seems kind of likely if I replace the oil cooler. I'm not even sure where the oil cooler would go.

What @Tony Brooks said, in to the return from the skin tank would be idea.

4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Unfortunately they don't have any in stock, so it's either repair or replace with a new 218 GBP (presumably ex VAT) remote oil cooler...

Where is the £218 coming from? What oil cooler? Midland Swindlers do cheaper ones, similar looking to the one on my Beta 43 / PRM150.

Jen

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39 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Car repair places, especially classic cars might be a good start.

Thanks, this is a good tip. I'll look around for car repair shops.

 

46 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Where is the £218 coming from? What oil cooler? Midland Swindlers do cheaper ones, similar looking to the one on my Beta 43 / PRM150.

Ah thanks, so it's kind of an inline device that goes into the coolant flow. Makes sense.

 

That's just what Beta quoted me on the phone. I don't know what oil cooler. 100 GBP odd seems much more reasonable. I guess I would still need something to plug up the hole left by removing the oil cooler end cap?

 

I still don't really see anywhere that there is enough hose that I could remove to fit something as large as this, most of the cooling pipes to the skin tanks are solid steel. So I'd either have to cut into those or perhaps do something else weird. Will think about it.

 

Stupid question, but is it the gearbox that pumps the oil around the system for cooling, or is it something inside the engine / oil cooler device?

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1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

  I guess I would still need something to plug up the hole left by removing the oil cooler end cap?

 

Leave the cap there if there is no oil in it   https://www.asap-supplies.com/engine-spares-gearboxes/oil-coolers-accessories/oil-coolers/bowman-dc90-oil-cooler-203050

 

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17 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

is it the gearbox that pumps the oil around the system for cooling, or is it something inside the engine / oil cooler device?

 

Yes, the gearbox pumps the oil through the cooler, and the engine water pump pumps the cooling water through.

This is the oil circulation:

Capture.PNG.adf33c0065de941d017a7349e7e77a4a.PNG

(From the manual at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiTs8LDlbHoAhWaFcAKHRhIC3sQFjABegQIAxAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prm-newage.com%2Fmedia%2Fuploads%2F5050834c6f7e0.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1Zi6RhyAsK1JQkb8yQDX27}

Edited by David Mack

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7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

That's just what Beta quoted me on the phone. I don't know what oil cooler. 100 GBP odd seems much more reasonable. I guess I would still need something to plug up the hole left by removing the oil cooler end cap?

What @ditchcrawler said. No need. Use what you've got as a blanking cap.

 

8 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Stupid question, but is it the gearbox that pumps the oil around the system for cooling, or is it something inside the engine / oil cooler device?

Good question! There is a pump inside the gearbox that feeds oil to the hydraulic clutches at high pressure and at low pressure for lubrication. This will also be sending it to the oil cooler.

Jen

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47 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Good question! There is a pump inside the gearbox that feeds oil to the hydraulic clutches at high pressure and at low pressure for lubrication. This will also be sending it to the oil cooler.

Jen

Almost certainly on the  return from the gearbox spool valve as shown in DM's diagram.

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I would also say that it is repairable but if the hose fitting had a tapered thread(?) overtightening might have caused the crack and spread the casting and if you are really unlucky it might be hard to get the hose fitting to fit well.. I might have a Bowman oil cooler in the shed https://www.asap-supplies.com/engine-spares-gearboxes/oil-coolers-accessories/oil-coolers/bowman-dc50-oil-cooler-203010 that I think is the equivalent to this one, from memory it needs rubber end caps and also new 'O' rings might be a good idea. I'll have a look in the morning, I only want about £10 for it.

Edited by Bee
  • Greenie 1

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Those male- male adapters don't seal on the threads, but on a copper or bonded (Dowty) washer. I can't see that using PTFE tape should have caused the split though.

 

I have just replaced the PRM120 gearbox in my own boat with a hydraulic PRM150,  and the oil cooler was a bit of a nightmare. There is a bracket for the cooler, hydraulic connections, and worst of all diverting the skin tank return. Don't underestimate how long it takes! (And the cost).

 

Richard 

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14 hours ago, Bee said:

I would also say that it is repairable but if the hose fitting had a tapered thread(?) overtightening might have caused the crack and spread the casting and if you are really unlucky it might be hard to get the hose fitting to fit well

 

I think the male-male adapter might be tapered on one side and not the other. I wasn't sure which way around it went and both seemed to fit, so I think I inserted the tapered side into the oil cooler end cap, causing it to split. I then turned it around the correct way, but this seems like the most likely explanation. The hose side still seems to fit perfectly, though.


I accidentally posted a duplicate of this thread, which had one helpful reply suggesting I contact @RLWP to ask if your engineering company could possibly help with repairing the part?

 

For now, especially given the lockdown situation I think I'm going to do as the Beta salesman suggested and try to seal it with Aruldite. The leak is such a tiny ooze that it will at worst just mean an oily engine and having to top up the gearbox every so long.

@Ryeland I can imagine, looking at my engine bay, that placing a new inline oil cooler would be a major job, and a major job that needs to go on a list of other major jobs to do!

 

The obvious place I think would be in the steel pipe that joins directly between the two skin tanks, located as it is right next to the gearbox and hopefully having water that is at most medium temperature. I'd have to cut out a section of this pipe long enough to take the oil cooler. As you can see from the picture that pipe runs directly under the prop shaft and it's really inaccessible.

 

image.png.d22dccf40bee9dee4a5c75a95f501454.png

 

14 hours ago, Bee said:

I might have a Bowman oil cooler in the shed https://www.asap-supplies.com/engine-spares-gearboxes/oil-coolers-accessories/oil-coolers/bowman-dc50-oil-cooler-203010 that I think is the equivalent to this one, from memory it needs rubber end caps and also new 'O' rings might be a good idea. I'll have a look in the morning, I only want about £10 for it.

Thanks for the offer! How long is the oil cooler? I'm curious to know how much of the steel pipe I would have to remove and if that would be possible.

 

I think the place that was suggested is here - on the coolant inlet to the engine? This has the advantage of not needing to angle grind through steel but also the disadvantage that it is located a long way from the gearbox - I'd need much longer hoses (green) to get the oil there.

I've put coloured arrows to indicate what I think is the coolant flow from engine, to skin tank, to skin tank, back to engine.

 

image.png.4a4ec66402d1e780aee9b14ae1bb03ca.png

 



 

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I would advise against putting it in that pipe. You need the coolest water possible passing through it and in the case of that pipe it would only be half cooled so when the engine is working hard and thus the gearbox generating a lot of heat the oil will be cooled less well.

 

It should go between the skin tank outlet and the engine. The oil cooler can be mounted anywhere, see where Lister have put them i the past with long hydraulic hoses. Just make sure the rubber end caps of a new oil cooler accept a large enough coolant pipe. It has been known for people to reduce the main coolant pipe to 1/2" to suit a raw water oil cooler and then wonder why the engine overheats under high power.

  • Greenie 1

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If you Araldite the crack you could also put a small exhaust clamp or even a Jubilee clip around it to reinforce it a bit . But put the clamp or clip on straight away before the Araldite sets. Make sure the clamp or clip is the correct size.

  OK forget it, I see the fitting is not circular.

Edited by bizzard

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16 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

What @ditchcrawler said. No need. Use what you've got as a blanking cap.

 

Good question! There is a pump inside the gearbox that feeds oil to the hydraulic clutches at high pressure and at low pressure for lubrication. This will also be sending it to the oil cooler.

Jen

When I phoned PRM a couple of months ago to ask them what pressure the oil cooler circuit worked at they couldn't tell me. (PRM150).

 

I live in Watford and know the area well. In the normal course of events it would be no trouble to run around on your behalf. Unfortunately we're all locked down with no sign of a release date. I know a particularly good engineering company just a few miles away. If you need it I also know a company in the middle of Watford who make up hydraulic pipes.

 

Frank

Edited by Slim

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11 minutes ago, Slim said:

When I phoned PRM a couple of months ago to ask them what pressure the oil cooler circuit worked at they couldn't tell me. (PRM150)

It will be all but zero because its on the return to the body of the box ("sump/reservoir"). I seem to remember some of us saying this a sort while ago.

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11 minutes ago, bizzard said:

If you Araldite the crack you could also put a small exhaust clamp or even a Jubilee clip around it to reinforce it a bit . But put the clamp or clip on straight away before the Araldite sets. Make sure the clamp or clip is the correct size.

  OK forget it, I see the fitting is not circular.

Or wrap it with soft iron wire. 

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I read somewhere,  possibly in another thread here, that the pressure can be 300psi for a short time. 

 

Regarding positioning, the 'official ' position is on the manifold. The sump pump is moved along towards the rear, leaving room for the cooler. The easiest way would be to buy the cooler, bracket, and pipe to the engine from Beta, which would all easily fit on. Then you need to pipe back to the skin tank, and here you're on your own! Look on Ebay for silicone pre made bends. You need a U shape on the cooler,  and probably a 90deg on the tank, plus hose and joiners to connect them together. 

 

Richard 

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This is the heat exchanger / oil cooler, about 12" overall length, it needs a little locking tab on one end but that is a really easy job, its not a Bowman, its a Serck part, can't find out anything about it on the Serck website but its probably been obsolete for longer than I have.

2020-03-24 003.JPG

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51 minutes ago, Ryeland said:

I read somewhere,  possibly in another thread here, that the pressure can be 300psi for a short time. 

In the gearbox maybe, but not in the cooler itself if it is on the relief valve drain line as in the diagram I posted in post #11.

Edited by David Mack

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20 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I would advise against putting it in that pipe. You need the coolest water possible passing through it and in the case of that pipe it would only be half cooled so when the engine is working hard and thus the gearbox generating a lot of heat the oil will be cooled less well.

Even though it has already passed through one skin tank? I would have thought that pre-heating the engine's coolant with the gearbox would be more of an issue than pre-heating the gearbox coolant with the engine. But perhaps gearboxes like heat less than engines do?

Just had another thought. When the calorifier is cold, I believe the cooling is diverted to the calorifier rather than the skin tanks. In this case, won't the coolant stop circulating through the oil cooler / skin tank circuit, and potentially cause overheating of the gearbox?

 

 

20 hours ago, bizzard said:

If you Araldite the crack you could also put a small exhaust clamp or even a Jubilee clip around it to reinforce it a bit . But put the clamp or clip on straight away before the Araldite sets. Make sure the clamp or clip is the correct size.

 

19 hours ago, WotEver said:

Or wrap it with soft iron wire. 

I could try to put something around it to hold the Araldite tight against the part, thanks for the suggestion!

 

20 hours ago, Slim said:

I know a particularly good engineering company just a few miles away. If you need it I also know a company in the middle of Watford who make up hydraulic pipes.

Thank you! I have just been to Hopesafe in central Watford to get these hoses made up. Sixty quid later, I've split the part that the hoses attach and it looks like these hoses will be far too short to connect to where I'm told a new oil cooler should go (on the coolant inlet just before the engine and just after the skin tanks). Would the engineering company you mention be able to repair the oil cooler end cap?

 

19 hours ago, Ryeland said:

Regarding positioning, the 'official ' position is on the manifold. The sump pump is moved along towards the rear, leaving room for the cooler. The easiest way would be to buy the cooler, bracket, and pipe to the engine from Beta, which would all easily fit on.

This part sounds... ok...

 

19 hours ago, Ryeland said:

Then you need to pipe back to the skin tank, and here you're on your own! Look on Ebay for silicone pre made bends. You need a U shape on the cooler,  and probably a 90deg on the tank, plus hose and joiners to connect them together. 

This part... a bit terrifying. The pipes I need to connect them to are really nowhere near the manifold so it would be quite an operation to connect them up.

But I guess I'd have to do what I'd have to do? 218 GBP for the cooler, another 80 GBP for new longer hydraulic hoses, plus another 50 odd for the coolant pipes and brackets I'd need. Oh and replacing the coolant (which I do need to do anyway).

 

18 hours ago, Bee said:

This is the heat exchanger / oil cooler, about 12" overall length, it needs a little locking tab on one end but that is a really easy job, its not a Bowman, its a Serck part, can't find out anything about it on the Serck website but its probably been obsolete for longer than I have.

Thanks so much for digging this out and showing me the size. It's chunkier than I was expecting. I think a proper Beta part that bolts to the manifold might be the way forward, even if it is painfully expensive.

 

Decision is to attempt a temporary repair what I have with Araldite (any suggestions which one? There seems to be a number of options). Then a proper fix probably with the Beta cooler, longer hoses and spaghetti of coolant pipes coming later 😭

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