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Tim Lewis

Another Red Diesel Threat

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Presumably they would need to keep detailed records of how the fuel is used, and these would be subject to audit and random checks. 

I would think there is lots of wriggle room though.

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8 minutes ago, Neil Smith said:

I would think there is lots of wriggle room though.

Agreed. Red dye is a lot easier to police.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Agreed. Red dye is a lot easier to police.

But it costs a lot to do, and they are failing miserably at policing it anyway - and they know it.

 

Still, its a win for the RYA and the IWA who replied to the marine diesel consultation stating it would be unreasonable to expect marinas and boatyards to clean the red out of their pumps and tanks.  I doubt either organisation were expecting the total scrapping of red diesel for everyone though!

 

 

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If you restrict rebates to only certain sections of use, i.e. farmers use (10% of total red use), then even in the unlikely event that farm use of red doubled due to fraud the Gov would still collect 80% of duty - and have a 'hammer' to beat up farmers.

 

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11 minutes ago, StationMaster said:

If you restrict rebates to only certain sections of use, i.e. farmers use (10% of total red use), then even in the unlikely event that farm use of red doubled due to fraud the Gov would still collect 80% of duty - and have a 'hammer' to beat up farmers.

 

Fraud would be much higher if you couldn't tell the difference between what is for road use and what is for plant. When I was an apprentice we had petrol generators for site work. The chap I worked with bought the petrol for the genny's, half went in the genny's and half in his car. Imagine if every farm, building site, plant operator has tanks of dies that he can claim a big rebate on and its identical to what you put in a car. It will slowly become academic as diesel cars are phased out and electric take over.

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9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Fraud would be much higher if you couldn't tell the difference between what is for road use and what is for plant. When I was an apprentice we had petrol generators for site work. The chap I worked with bought the petrol for the genny's, half went in the genny's and half in his car. Imagine if every farm, building site, plant operator has tanks of dies that he can claim a big rebate on and its identical to what you put in a car. It will slowly become academic as diesel cars are phased out and electric take over.

I think you are missing the point.

 

If all industries/users that currently are allowed to use red are still allowed to there would be no point in changing the system.

 

If many industries/users are stopped from using 'red' then revenue will go up despite the potential for increased fraud - the increased fraud across an industry if significant will be apparent and more easily addressed by enforcement.

Edited by StationMaster

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8 minutes ago, StationMaster said:

I think you are missing the point.

 

If all industries/users that currently are allowed to use red are still allowed to there would be no point in changing the system.

 

If many industries/users are stopped from using 'red' then revenue will go up despite the potential for increased fraud - the increased fraud across an industry if significant will be apparent and more easily addressed by enforcement.

I think Ireland had the biggest fraud on rebated diesel where they just removed the colour and sold it on https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmniaf/1504/150404.htm

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8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think Ireland had the biggest fraud on rebated diesel where they just removed the colour and sold it on https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmniaf/1504/150404.htm

Looks like it was the criminals that removed the colour - wouldn't have been much point if the tax was already paid.

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Can you imagine the crime numbers for the theft of diesel from farms if there is a ready market for it

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Can you imagine the crime numbers for the theft of diesel from farms if there is a ready market for it

There already is a market for theft from farms and from households using kero. Not something the Gov cares about too much.

 

Whilst we are on about theft from farms...

 

To the boater (and it almost certainly was a boater as CCTV showed no vehicles or pedestrians approaching the farm) who cut a friends fuel pipe to drain off a couple of jerry cans or a drum (Heavy enough to need a trolley with wheel marks heading towards the canal) - you are a b*******. not only for the theft but for allowing nearly 1000 litres of diesel to leak out. £50 k insurance claim for clear up was required... Plus a revised CCTV system!

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3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Absolutely nothing.

 

What makes you think anyone will be able to claim any of it back?

They fill in detailed reports on usage and have done it for a number of years

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The whole point of getting rid of red is to force industries to use something cleaner, no doubt it will take time but profit is a powerful tool to develop something better without the emission problems of diesel

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

The whole point of getting rid of red is to force industries to use something cleaner,

 

Disagree. The whole point is to raise more tax from industries with no option other than to pay it. 

 

If there was a 'something cleaner' available for farmers and industry to use, there should be a tax incentive to use it. But there is no alternative. Yes there is plenty of stuff 'just around the corner' 'being developed', and 'looking promising', but no alternative energy available to use right in the here and now, on the day the tax hike gets applied.

 

The honest thing to do would be to apply the tax hike and commit all the extra revenue to govt funded R&D into developing alternatives, but I can't see that happening with the current goon in charge.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Disagree. The whole point is to raise more tax from industries with no option other than to pay it. 

 

If there was a 'something cleaner' available for farmers and industry to use, there should be a tax incentive to use it. But there is no alternative. Yes there is plenty of stuff 'just around the corner' 'being developed', and 'looking promising', but no alternative energy available to use right in the here and now, on the day the tax hike gets applied.

 

The honest thing to do would be to apply the tax hike and commit all the extra revenue to govt funded R&D into developing alternatives, but I can't see that happening with the current goon in charge.

 

 

 

Glycerol is used as a fuel for diesel engines where lower emissions are required.

 

Not sure how the cost compares to red or even white diesel, but it is very unlikely to be cheaper, partly due to low volume sales and partly because because it will carry a "green" premium.

 

https://www.motorship.com/news101/fuels-and-oils/nobodys-fuel...-yet

Edited by cuthound
To remove a letter masquerading as a space

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20 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Glycerol is used as a fuel for diesel engines where lower emissions are required.

 

Not sure how the cost compares to red or even white diesel, but it is very unlikely to be cheaper, partly due to low volume sales and partly because because it will carry a "green" premium.

 

https://www.motorship.com/news101/fuels-and-oils/nobodys-fuel...-yet

 

 

Previously glycerine and other very low cetane number calorific liquids were thought impossible to be used as fuels in compression ignition engines. We have developed a combustion cycle that permits the utilisation of glycerine as a fuel in a compression ignition engine without the need for pilot fuels or cetane improving additives. The paper discusses the results of glycerine combustion in standard unmodified Lister-Petter and Deutz compression ignition engines.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0957582011001017

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33 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Glycerol is used as a fuel for diesel engines where lower emissions are required.

 

Not sure how the cost compares to red or even white diesel, but it is very unlikely to be cheaper, partly due to low volume sales and partly because because it will carry a "green" premium.

 

https://www.motorship.com/news101/fuels-and-oils/nobodys-fuel...-yet

 

 

A brief goggle suggests glycerine is not currently and generally available for farmers and small to medium sized businesses to use as a regular fuel.

 

As I said, there is no alternative available NOW for small and medium sized businesses to switch to from diesel. 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Disagree. The whole point is to raise more tax from industries with no option other than to pay it. 

 

If there was a 'something cleaner' available for farmers and industry to use, there should be a tax incentive to use it. But there is no alternative. Yes there is plenty of stuff 'just around the corner' 'being developed', and 'looking promising', but no alternative energy available to use right in the here and now, on the day the tax hike gets applied.

 

The honest thing to do would be to apply the tax hike and commit all the extra revenue to govt funded R&D into developing alternatives, but I can't see that happening with the current goon in charge.

 

 

You do talk tripe Mike I was delivering Scania lpg and compressed natural gas lorries for Tescos in London in 2000! Also LPG powered Iveco delivery vans, these vehicles are cleaner than diesel by a country mile! so why wasnt it taken up? More than likely because the Labour tossers in charge allowed dirty diesels to keep on running in London, if this had been followed up the commercial fleet in the UK would have been much cleaner. On most building sites LPG could power the equipment that is currently diesel same for all warehouses could be LPG or electric, fridge/freezer lorries could be LPG for the motors. You as a gas engineer know that gas heating is way cleaner than diesel heating, so the cities with little effort could have been cleaned up massively by the adoption of LPG for local commercial transport. The DPD driver that delivers to mu old business has recently changed from a diesel transit to an LDV Maxis electric van it has a big enough range for him and is saving him money as well as helping Rotherham reduce emissions. The real problem is Mike you dont want change but whether you like it not it will happen.

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3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

You do talk tripe Mike I was delivering Scania lpg and compressed natural gas lorries for Tescos in London in 2000! Also LPG powered Iveco delivery vans, these vehicles are cleaner than diesel by a country mile! so why wasnt it taken up? More than likely because the Labour tossers in charge allowed dirty diesels to keep on running in London, if this had been followed up the commercial fleet in the UK would have been much cleaner. On most building sites LPG could power the equipment that is currently diesel same for all warehouses could be LPG or electric, fridge/freezer lorries could be LPG for the motors. You as a gas engineer know that gas heating is way cleaner than diesel heating, so the cities with little effort could have been cleaned up massively by the adoption of LPG for local commercial transport. The DPD driver that delivers to mu old business has recently changed from a diesel transit to an LDV Maxis electric van it has a big enough range for him and is saving him money as well as helping Rotherham reduce emissions. The real problem is Mike you dont want change but whether you like it not it will happen.

 

 

Missing my point by a country mile. As usual.

 

Do you ever read what I actually write, as opposed to what you thought I wrote?

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, furnessvale said:

That has not been the case for many years.  There has been no hypothecation of fuel duty since then.  All duty goes into a common pot to pay for roads, hospitals, schools defence et al.

 

However, to maintain a level playing field, if red is completely scrapped there will need to be adjustments in some areas.

 

For example, railway locomotives use red but then pay a charge per km to use the rail network.  If they are to use white in future, then either the charge per km will have to be scrapped or a similar charge per km introduced for road vehicles.  As the latter would be political suicide, the former must be adopted or the relative cost of rail and road for both passengers and freight will be distorted even further in favour of road.

I thought that the suggestion was that, with the aim of eliminating rebated (red) diesel but with the problem that the red dye will persist for a very long time, all transport users will have to use the same ie what was white but now is red yet having the current white tax regime. Those (relatively few) users not transport will have to reclaim the additional duty, at least for now. A fiscally-neutral arrangement for locomotives would simply reduce the per km charge, making an assumption about km/l. I cannot see any need for the scenario you posit.

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

A brief goggle suggests glycerine is not currently and generally available for farmers and small to medium sized businesses to use as a regular fuel.

 

As I said, there is no alternative available NOW for small and medium sized businesses to switch to from diesel. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dont think it will be long before itis more widely available.

 

Currently used in motorsport to provide lighting for night time grands prix and to recharge electric racing car batteries.

 

https://www.aquafuelresearch.com/

 

 

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1 minute ago, cuthound said:

Dont think it will be long before itis more widely available.

 

 

 

As I keep saying, not available now for farmers etc to use NOW!

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman

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20 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

As I keep saying, not available now for farmers etc to use NOW!

 

 

So what are you actually saying, Mike?

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56 minutes ago, peterboat said:

More than likely because the Labour tossers in charge allowed dirty diesels to keep on running in London,

 

Point of order, Peter - the Tory tossers in charge of London between 2008 and 2016 did nothing about it either!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Point of order, Peter - the Tory tossers in charge of London between 2008 and 2016 did nothing about it either!

 

 

I'm no supporter of The Labour party, but you shouldn't let the matter of a mere decade get in the way of someone having a go at The Labour Party, (which hasn't had any power during those 10 years).

 

It seems that the EU were right to deal with red diesel in the way that they did, and good to see all those hypocritical Brexiteers agreeing with it :) 

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1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

I'm no supporter of The Labour party, but you shouldn't let the matter of a mere decade get in the way of someone having a go at The Labour Party, (which hasn't had any power during those 10 years).

 

It seems that the EU were right to deal with red diesel in the way that they did, and good to see all those hypocritical Brexiteers agreeing with it :) 

Richard red diesel going doesn't matter to me I don't use it, and have said from the beginning it would go.  My point is cleaner fuels are available and removing the cheap alternative is the only way to spur on the use of them. The climate situation is serious and because this government is taking the steps needed to help Lowe CO2 we are all whining about it.

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