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rusty69

Xantrex Prosine 1000i Inverter neutral-earth bond

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I have just picked up a replacement inverter, a Xantrex prosine 1000i. The manual states:-

 

Quote

b) 230V models: There is no connection made inside the Prosine Inverter from either of the line conductors (line or neutral) to the safety ground

and from one of Gibbo's previous posts:

 

Quote

Ok.............

 

For this type of inverter only (ie high frequency) here's the situation.

 

There are three basic circuits that I am aware of being currently used for manufacture of small inverters of this type.

 

1. Totally isolated output. There is no connection whatsoever between the AC output and the DC input and/or earth. This type is perfectly fine to have neutral and earth bonded.

 

2. Partially isolated. The AC output is isolated from the DC input but the AC output is "sort of" centre tapped round the output ground. This type cannot have the neutral and earth bonded.

 

3. Mickey mouse isolated. There isn't full isolation between the DC side and the AC side. This type cannot have the neutral and earth bonded.

 

Now to identify which type you have................

 

Firstly, using a multimeter, ensure that the output ground is bonded to the case. If it isn't, take it back to the shop for a refund. End of.

 

ONLY do this if you know what you are doing with mains electricity. You could kill yourself if you get it wrong. I accept no responsibility for any consequences.

 

Get a 15 to 40 watt 230 volt bulb. Connect it between output ground and one of the AC outputs. Then connect it between output ground and the other AC output. It should not light up on either of them. If it does not light up then you have 1. above. It is fine to bond neutral and earth.

 

If it does light up fully on one of them but not the other then it already has neutral/earth bonding. Check it has the correct one bonded. Live should light it up, neutral should not.

 

If it lights up on both of them you either have 2. or 3.

 

If it's 2. then you cannot bond neutral and earth but you don't need to. The centre tapping will allow an RCD to operate properly and protect you in the same way it usually does.

 

If you have 3. then it should only ever be used with double insulated equipment. They are not suitable for any other type of equipment. They are dangerous if used with single insulated equipment.

 

How to identify between 2. and 3. ?

 

Connect the same lightbulb between each of the outputs and the DC negative input. If it lights up even partially on either of them then it is 3. - Do not use it for anything that isn't double insulated (ie only has a 2 conductor mains lead).

 

Finally, for inverters of type 2, using a multimeter, ensure there is no continuity (it must be greater than 1MOhm) between the output ground wire and either of the DC input wires. If there is continuity between either of them the inverter should only be used with double insulated equipment.

 

If you do anything wrong in the above, or do not do exactly what is written above you could conceivably:-

 

1. Kill yourself.

2. Kill someone else.

3. Blow the inverter up.

4. Identify the wrong type of inverter

 

I repeat. I accept no responsibility for any consequences. You are not paying me for this advice. If you kill yourself, that's your problem 

 

Alternatively bring it to me and I'll check it for you.

 

Edit: To clarify following Chris W's post:-

 

A connection between the DC input and the AC ground output is acceptable only if the AC outputs are isolated and thus can have neutral and earth bonded (or are already N/E bonded).

 

If the outputs are not isolated (thus putting the inverter into type 2. or 3.) then an internal connection between the DC inputs and ground (which type 3. will have by default) should only be used with double insulated equipment.

 

Gibbo

I am quite willing to have a go at option 1.Killing myself, but to save me the effort, if anyone already has this model of inverter, and can advise if it can be neutral-earth bonded I would be pleased to save the crematorium the business.

 

Thanks

Edited by rusty69

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buy a Victron....

 

 

sorry, not much help....I did get lots of advice from Gibbo in the early days, and am still using some of his old kit...along with the ultra reliable Smartgauge - but you need to either give us the complete instructions, or.....buy a Vic....

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2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

buy a Victron....

 

 

sorry, not much help....I did get lots of advice from Gibbo in the early days, and am still using some of his old kit...along with the ultra reliable Smartgauge - but you need to either give us the complete instructions, or.....buy a Vic....

I don't have the instructions, but downloaded the PDF from here:

 

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Power-Inverters/PROsine/Prosine%201000-1800%20Owner's%20Manual(445-0049-01-01_Rev-B).pdf

 

Thanks.

 

I can't afford a Victron. If I could,I would buy a Mastervolt:)

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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I have just picked up a replacement inverter from e-bay, a Xantrex prosine 1000i. The manual states:-

 

and from one of Gibbo's previous posts:

 

I am quite willing to have a go at option 1.Killing myself, but to save me the effort, if anyone already has this model of inverter, and can advise if it can be neutral-earth bonded I would be pleased to save the crematorium the business.

 

Thanks

Why don't you check it out as per Gibbo's test procedure?

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Just now, Flyboy said:

Why don't you check it out as per Gibbo's test procedure?

I probably will, unless someone already has the same model to save me the bother(I thought I already said that:))

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16 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I probably will, unless someone already has the same model to save me the bother(I thought I already said that:))

You said you were only going to do option 1.   Do the tests with a 15watt 240 V light bulb.

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I do own one of the very first units of this model (1999) and has given 20 years of service without a problem. The requirement for DC grounding of the unit in some locations is in the US regs. My own was installed using the diagram suppied by Merlin Equipment. The RCD works without the requirment for the unit to be grounded.  You need a 175amp circuit breaker or fuse in the DC cable. You can remote the panel using a RJ 10 cable. 

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1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

I have just picked up a replacement inverter, a Xantrex prosine 1000i. The manual states:-

 

and from one of Gibbo's previous posts:

 

I am quite willing to have a go at option 1.Killing myself, but to save me the effort, if anyone already has this model of inverter, and can advise if it can be neutral-earth bonded I would be pleased to save the crematorium the business.

 

Thanks

We have its big brother, the 1800i. Absolutely stonkingly good piece of kit. Ours is at least 15 years old and going strong. It's neutral-earth bonded with no problems.

 

We use the power-save feature, which reduces the standing current to very low levels. The procedure for enabling powersave is a right pain, so it's worth knowing that there's a jumper or dipswitch inside that changes the default at startup from powersave-off to powersave-on.

 

MP.

 

 

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2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I am quite willing to have a go...

Those tests will only take about 5 minutes. The longest part of the procedure these days is finding a filament bulb.  LED won’t work, you MUST load the output.  

I’d fully expect the output to be floating, un which case you can go ahead and N-E bond it. 

 

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4 hours ago, rusty69 said:

OK. Thanks all, I will go find a suitable bulb. 

You can still get 15 & 25 watt appliance bulbs. 

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If you have an isolation transformer, rather than a galvanic isolator, then this can be used to set a neutral-earth bond even if it can't be done on the inverter itself. connnect the inverter output in to the transformer input, instead of the shore line and the isolation transformer output should be neutral-boat earth bonded. I've done this on my boat when the Victron was poorly and I had to connect up an emergency backup cheapy modified sine wave inverter for a while.

 

Jen

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57 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

You can still get 15 & 25 watt appliance bulbs. 

Plus a suitable bulb holder of course. 

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1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you have an isolation transformer, rather than a galvanic isolator, then this can be used to set a neutral-earth bond even if it can't be done on the inverter itself. connnect the inverter output in to the transformer input, instead of the shore line and the isolation transformer output should be neutral-boat earth bonded. I've done this on my boat when the Victron was poorly and I had to connect up an emergency backup cheapy modified sine wave inverter for a while.

 

Jen

Nope.I have a galvanic isolator. I will cross the neutral-earth bond bridge if I get past step 1 without killing myself.

 

Just now, WotEver said:

Plus a suitable bulb holder of course. 

I was just gonna use a standard 240 lamp holder with a low wattage lamp.

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2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I was just gonna use a standard 240 lamp holder with a low wattage lamp.

Yeah, that’s fine. Try to ensure that the connections are finger-proof in order to defeat (1). 

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On 02/12/2019 at 21:13, Flyboy said:

You said you were only going to do option 1.   Do the tests with a 15watt 240 V light bulb.

I think he meant option 1 from the second set of options: kill yourself.

 

I hope he doesn't!

Edited by blackrose
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OK chaps and chapesses. I have determined that the inverter is not neutral-earth bonded, and Gibbos test suggests it is OK to do so. There is no easy way to do so on the inverter. Is it OK to make the connection in the consumer unit? 

 

I assume the only drawback of this is that in the future, should the inverter be replaced with one that isn't suitable for neutral - earth bonding, there could be a problem. 

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1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

OK chaps and chapesses. I have determined that the inverter is not neutral-earth bonded, and Gibbos test suggests it is OK to do so. There is no easy way to do so on the inverter. Is it OK to make the connection in the consumer unit? 

 

I assume the only drawback of this is that in the future, should the inverter be replaced with one that isn't suitable for neutral - earth bonding, there could be a problem. 

If your inverter has a mains output socket you simply make a earth/neutral conection in a plug and insert it in the socket.

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4 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

If your inverter has a mains output socket you simply make a earth/neutral conection in a plug and insert it in the socket.

No socket. I spose I could add one to the end of the cable, then connect the cu to the socket via a plug. 

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Or if you connect to shore power the bollard will trip.

 

True. 

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How is the 240v outlet from your inverter configured?  I assume there are screw type terminals somewhere inside.  If so simply connect the one you choose as neutral to the boat hull and any earth point on the inverter, using at least 4 mm2 green/yellow cable.

It would then be wise to label the inverter case to say that there is a NE bond fitted to the outlet.

If there is only a cable lead it to a junction box  and join NE and hull as above, labelling the junction box.

N

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3 minutes ago, BEngo said:

How is the 240v outlet from your inverter configured?  I assume there are screw type terminals somewhere inside.  If so simply connect the one you choose as neutral to the boat hull and any earth point on the inverter, using at least 4 mm2 green/yellow cable.

It would then be wise to label the inverter case to say that there is a NE bond fitted to the outlet.

If there is only a cable lead it to a junction box  and join NE and hull as above, labelling the junction box.

N

I have managed to make the connection within the inverter afterall. It is a terminal block connection. 

 

I think I will stick a label on the inverter too, for future reference.

 

Many thanks.

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1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

I have managed to make the connection within the inverter afterall. It is a terminal block connection.

Good :)

 

It is the source that needs to be corrected, as you have done. Putting the link in the CU is correcting it at the destination, which could be very confusing for future owners (or indeed if you connected shore power). 

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2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

 

I think I will stick a label on the inverter too, for future reference.

At the inquest you mean? ;)

 

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24 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Good :)

 

It is the source that needs to be corrected, as you have done. Putting the link in the CU is correcting it at the destination, which could be very confusing for future owners (or indeed if you connected shore power). 

There are two consumer units. One for shore power, one for inverter power with a manual changeover switch. I think the inverter has a transfer switch, but I didn't use it. 

 

Best done at the inverter, as you say. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

At the inquest you mean? ;)

 

I'm just glad I'm still alive. 

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