portable generator

[doratheexplorer]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They can be stored on an 'open deck' where vapours / fuel can have an "unimpeded flow overboard".

 

I would suggest that where there are loose 'deck-boards' (where the vapour/fuel could run into the cracks and potentially into the bilges) these would be a failure.

But knowing the inconsistencies of examiners it would be 'hit or miss'.

 

BSS :

Are all portable petrol tanks stored, when not in use, to ensure that any leaking fuel or escaping vapour will not enter the interior of the vessel?

Exactly.  Not too onerous then.  I keep mine at the bow, secured against theft.

[mrsmelly]

42 minutes ago, dmr said:

Lots and lots of boaters use petrol generators. We did it briefly while we got the injection pump rebuilt and I really didn't like it.

I saw a boat that had experienced a petrol file though we arrived just after the fire had been put out. There was very little left of the boat but nobody was hurt. It was really scary as the fire started as the boat was approaching Barnton tunnel, a few minutes later and it would have been horrible.

 

Lots and lots of boats use their engines to charge batteries, this also makes hot water and can even propel the boat along the canal at the same time if so desired.

When you get your next boat find one with a TravelPower.

 

...............Dave

Dont ALL boats have them  When looking for a boat that is way higher up my list than engine or stern type for instance.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

When looking for a boat that is way higher up my list than engine

The TP isn't much use without an engine ...

[dmr]

14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Dont ALL boats have them  When looking for a boat that is way higher up my list than engine or stern type for instance.

Portholes, Trad stern, Proper Engine Room and Back cabin, TravelPower, Pump out bog....and if its a hobby boat a tug deck.

 

.........Dave

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A bit like you have bald tyres on your car but rather than spend any money you borrow your mates wheels for the day when your MOT is due.

 

I am sure that's been done too.

 

 

Fortunately I have a suitable locker for the petrol can . The decks where the generator may be placed when not in use drain overboard.

 

I have had a petrol leak from a generator. Therefore agree the storage location is very important.

 

[doratheexplorer]

Jacuzzi, disco ball, a pointy bow, portholes, eco fan.  In that order.

[mrsmelly]

41 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Jacuzzi, disco ball, a pointy bow, portholes, eco fan.  In that order.

An eco fan is an absolute must innitt ?

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

An eco fan is an absolute must innitt ?

You can tell how popular and how useful they are by the fact that Aldi have them in the 'aisle of treats' at the moment.

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

I am sure that's been done too.

 

 

Fortunately I have a suitable locker for the petrol can . The decks where the generator may be placed when not in use drain overboard.

 

I have had a petrol leak from a generator. Therefore agree the storage location is very important.

 

I wonder if my cratch would be “OK” for storage. It has holes at the lowest level to allow water to drain over the side, and there is a 2” lip to stop water getting into the cabin/living area.

 

For clarity, my petrol and genny are stored ashore, and the genny runs on the bank....

 

but it might be handy to be able to safely keep a full genny in the cratch on those rare occasions when I venture more than a day trip from the mooring.

[Momac]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You can tell how popular and how useful they are by the fact that Aldi have them in the 'aisle of treats' at the moment.

Well that sorts out the  Christmas present for the wife !?

[Dr Bob]

16 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I wonder if my cratch would be “OK” for storage. It has holes at the lowest level to allow water to drain over the side, and there is a 2” lip to stop water getting into the cabin/living area.

 

 

I wouldnt.

If your door is open then assuming no wind, most of any evaporating butane will go down through the door rather than the two small holes at deck level. Once inside the boat the gas will settle in the bilge. Ok, most of the time it will be windy or the door will be shut and there will be no escape of butane so you will be fine. The risk of the butane being in big enough quantities and igniting is likely to be very low so not likely to happen .....but unfortunately when it does, the outcome can and has been fatal.

The point I want to make is that petrol contains a significant amount of butane which can not be seen and is bloody dangerous. With our gas installations almost everyone sticks to the rules to ensure no one gets blown up.

[mrsmelly]

46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You can tell how popular and how useful they are by the fact that Aldi have them in the 'aisle of treats' at the moment.

Or the pound shop? 

 

[MtB]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I suppose that at least stops you dying on 1 day every 4 years.

 

Hyperbole always damages the value of an argument.

 

How many people have died on the 35,000 canal boats we have, as a result of refueling their genny on the stern deck?

 

I don't know but I suspect it is very few, possibly none. 

[Dr Bob]

14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Hyperbole always damages the value of an argument.

 

How many people have died on the 35,000 canal boats we have, as a result of refueling their genny on the stern deck?

 

I don't know but I suspect it is very few, possibly none. 

How many peeps do refuel on their boats? Very very few of the 35,000 I would guess so not likely any deaths.

How many boats have gone on fire and people died due to misuse of petrol (all boats). I think the answer is 'too many'. Thats why all boats with petrol engines have to have bilge blowers etc etc. Petrol on boats has to be taken seriously.

 

I think it is a bit irresponsible of you to say

How many people have died on the 35,000 canal boats we have, as a result of refueling their genny on the stern deck?

as that seems to suggest it is not problem. Like I said the risk of it happening is very very low but the impact of that risk occuring might be fatal. Fancy being charged with manslaughter if you blow your wife/kids up?

Edited October 30, 2019 by Dr Bob

[doratheexplorer]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Hyperbole always damages the value of an argument.

 

How many people have died on the 35,000 canal boats we have, as a result of refueling their genny on the stern deck?

 

I don't know but I suspect it is very few, possibly none. 

We, as a species, have a tendancy to catastrophise.  We also, tend to evaluate risk very poorly.  The most probably serious boating related injury is likely to be something like a fall from height, specifically around a lock. Less exciting and therefore less newsworthy than blowing up in a petrol fuelled fireball though.

 

What is also true is that, without exception, every story I've read about people dying on boats due to CO inhalation or fire, has included a line about there being no CO alarm/smoke alarm fitted or working.

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

How many peeps do refuel on their boats? Very very few of the 35,000 I would guess so not likely any deaths.

How many boats have gone on fire and people died due to misuse of petrol (all boats). I think the answer is 'too many'. Thats why all boats with petrol engines have to have bilge blowers etc etc. Petrol on boats has to be taken seriously.

 

I think it is a bit irresponsible of you to say

How many people have died on the 35,000 canal boats we have, as a result of refueling their genny on the stern deck?

as that seems to suggest it is not problem. Like I said the risk of it happening is very very low but the impact of that risk occuring might be fatal. Fancy being charged with manslaughter if you blow your wife/kids up?

I suspect it's far more common than you suspect.

[MtB]

 

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

I think it is a bit irresponsible of you to say

How many people have died on the 35,000 canal boats we have, as a result of refueling their genny on the stern deck?

as that seems to suggest it is not problem. Like I said the risk of it happening is very very low but the impact of that risk occuring might be fatal. Fancy being charged with manslaughter if you blow your wife/kids up?

 

If you review the post I quoted, context should be clear. 

 

Alan was sort of implying that people die every day from filling their gennies on board. I was countering that hyperbole. 

 

Some balance and common sense needs applying. I agree boat fires are occasionally caused by petrol being decanted. Yet I see it being done from time to time and I've yet to see a fire, so the risk appears to be low. As you say, we are into that 'low risk Vs awful consequences' judgement call.

 

Does anyone have any stats on how many boaters run and refuel their gennies on board Vs how many do it on the bank? My empirical observation around here is that perhaps one in 25 do it on the bank, and the rest do it on the boat. 

 

 

 

[Sea Dog]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

What is also true is that, without exception, every story I've read about people dying on boats due to CO inhalation or fire, has included a line about there being no CO alarm/smoke alarm fitted or working.

The key risk under discussion here, that from petrol fumes in boats, is not of CO but of explosion after the heavier-than-air petrol vapour enters the cabin. If allowed to drift into the boat, these invisible fumes go low, finding their way into the lower cabin and/or bilge where, with no means of escape and without bilge blowers fitted in petrol powered enclosed boats, they can build up.  Explosions are thankfully rare, but they'd be more frequent if folk using petrol didn't recognise the danger and mitigate the risk by taking sensible precautions, both in terms of stowage and when fuelling.

[Dr Bob]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Does anyone have any stats on how many boaters run and refuel their gennies on board Vs how many do it on the bank? My empirical observation around here is that perhaps one in 25 do it on the bank, and the rest do it on the boat. 

 

 

 

I got sensitised to the issue when we used petrol to fill our outboard on the lumpy water boat. Trouble was that we were usually floating on an anchorage and filling the engine to take the tender ashore. No chance to fill it up on dry land then unless you planned ahead!

[doratheexplorer]

Just now, Sea Dog said:

The key risk under discussion here, that from petrol fumes in boats, is not of CO but of explosion after the heavier-than-air petrol vapour enters the cabin. If allowed to drift into the boat, these invisible fumes go low, finding their way into the lower cabin and/or bilge where, with no means of escape and without bilge blowers fitted in petrol powered enclosed boats, they can build up.  Explosions are thankfully rare, but they'd be more frequent if folk using petrol didn't recognise the danger and mitigate the risk by taking sensible precautions, both in terms of stowage and when fuelling.

Nobody is advocating ignoring sensible precautions.  But some are suggesting that generators are a total no-no for boats.  They aren't.  They just need using with care and common sense.

14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

If you review the post I quoted, context should be clear. 

 

Alan was sort of implying that people die every day from filling their gennies on board. I was countering that hyperbole. 

 

Some balance and common sense needs applying. I agree boat fires are occasionally caused by petrol being decanted. Yet I see it being done from time to time and I've yet to see a fire, so the risk appears to be low. As you say, we are into that 'low risk Vs awful consequences' judgement call.

 

Does anyone have any stats on how many boaters run and refuel their gennies on board Vs how many do it on the bank? My empirical observation around here is that perhaps one in 25 do it on the bank, and the rest do it on the boat. 

 

 

 

I'm in the one in 25.

[Momac]

From the interweb...................

 

Gasoline is very volatile when changing from a liquid to a vapor at low temperatures. Gasoline vapors are denser than air, meaning these vapors will sink and collect at the lowest point. ... An open flame is not necessary to ignite gas vapors; one spark can cause gasoline vapors to ignite

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't  dream of refuelling or running a generator  while the generator is  standing on the boat  but I have  certainly refuelled an outboard while the engine and its integral fuel tank is attached to a dinghy. I think I have under estimated the risk of  a little spillage  of petrol or just petrol fumes collecting in  the dinghy perhaps I will be a little more careful in future .

 

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I wouldn't  dream of refuelling or running a generator  while the generator is  standing on the boat

 

Well you are the rarity then. Probably one reason you are still alive. But then lots of boaters DO both refuel and run gennies on the boat - I see it almost every day - and all of them are still alive too.

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

An open flame is not necessary to ignite gas vapors; one spark can cause gasoline vapors to ignite

 

Can, but usually doesn't, I would opine. An open flame on the other hand is highly likely to ignite petrol vapour  - provided the density in air is between the upper and lower explosive limits.

 

There was a case discussed on here about a year ago where a bloke was refilling his outboard fuel tank of a cruiser with the stern deck door open. Wife decided to put the kettle on in the galley and BOOM. Major conflagration. And very rare. Stupid thing to do, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. 

 

 

 

 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

I wonder if my cratch would be “OK” for storage. It has holes at the lowest level to allow water to drain over the side, and there is a 2” lip to stop water getting into the cabin/living area.

 

Since the BSS requires gas and petrol lockers to be gas tight (apart from the drain) to at least the height of the gas bottle valve or cap of the petrol can, your well deck is only suitable storage for gas bottles or petrol cans less than 2 inches high.

[magictime]

How long are you talking about being away from shore power, and how often?

 

If you're talking about a few weeks a year, just run the engine. If months on end, and without solar power, the case for a generator makes more sense. 

 

I was weighing this up myself recently (year-round liveaboard CCer) and had pretty much talked myself into getting a generator, as I didn't want to be running my engine 20 hours a week or more through the winter (= say 6 days at 2 hours and one at 8 hours) even if staying put in a given week. But the practicalities and safety concerns regarding use and storage did worry me.

 

In the end I've gone for a somewhat lateral solution; since my batteries need replacing anyway, I've bought a set of Pure Lead Carbon batteries that are claimed to charge faster and to be less reliant on frequent full charges to stay in good condition. Hence, in theory, I should be able to get by with maybe half the engine running time while stationary (say 60-90 minutes 7 days a week, which I'd need for hot water anyway), with full charges from a cruising day at least once a fortnight. They're expensive, but no more expensive than a regular set of batteries plus a generator plus fuel to run it. Made sense to me anyway; I'll see how they work out in practice.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

I suspect it's far more common than you suspect.

We had a 'bit of an issue' at the Marina which resulted in the Police being called after a boater called them saying they were being threatened by a man with an axe.

 

The boater in question had a petrol powered GRP cruiser and was moored on the middle of a pontoon and surrounded by about a dozen other boats (mainly diesel powered, NB's on one side and cruisers on the other).

This boater was one who 'pushed every boundary' and had been 'on a warning' several times.

 

On this particular day they came down the pontoon with a trolley full (maybe half a dozen) Jerry-Cans filled with petrol and started to fuel-up their boat. The Marina manager insisted they stop and move the boat over to the fuel pontoon where equipment was in place for spillages, fire etc, but "NO" they refused to move. The water around the boat was 'rainbow' with spilt fuel and being a lovely warm day and the jerry cans sitting in the Sun, the 'air was thick with petrol fumes'.

 

An alongside boater went to fetch his axe to cut the mooring lines so they could push the boat away from the rest of the boats - the boater called the Police.

At the end of the confrontation (Police in attendance) the boater stopped re-fueling and the axe had disappeared.

 

The boaters mooring contract was cancelled and they were forced to leave immediately.

They spent a few days on the moorings outside the C&RT offices at the Kiln, and then went up to the moorings at Torksey, where they were evicted a few months later.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I wouldnt.

If your door is open then assuming no wind, most of any evaporating butane will go down through the door rather than the two small holes at deck level. Once inside the boat the gas will settle in the bilge. Ok, most of the time it will be windy or the door will be shut

 

But the doors don't have a gas tight seal to the frame. And you may have low level ventilators in them.