What is your washing machine setup?

[jetzi]

All the trips to the laundromats are getting us down and I'm starting to think about our washing machine solution. We're nowhere near ready for one electrically and plumbingly, but I want to start thinking about how this is going to work in advance as it will affect those systems accordingly. I have searched for and read some of the many old threads on this topic, but being that technology has moved on I felt it would be worth an update. If there are any particularly good threads on the forum that you'd recommend I read, a link would be greatly appreciated.

 

We are continuously cruising liveaboards. No 240V at all yet but we'll get a nice pure sine inverter, batteries, solar sized accordingly to the washing machine (and hairdryer, which are the only two 240V appliances we miss). We have a 610w x 600d x 880h hole for a washing machine under the kitchen counter next to the sink skin fitting and 240V plug socket (not plumbed in to anything). Our land-based preference is for long, hot washes but of course this is going to have to change somewhat. We don't have much faith in the sub 30min 40 degree wash.

 

I have seen people suggesting using hot water from the cauliflower. This seems like a great idea on the face of it but modern washing machines seem to have such a complicated automation sequence that I am doubtful you'll get away with this without messing up the programme. There is a good website that explains why hot feeds were removed from modern washing machines and I find it disappointingly convincing https://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/i-want-a-washing-machine-with-a-hot-water-valve/. It also explains why simply connecting up the hot water to the cold inlet is not a good idea (in short, it messes up the programme, and it is nigh impossible to get the temperature right to not break your clothes).

 

They do also recommend a hot fill machine by Ebac: https://www.ebac.com/washing-machines/hot-fill Anyone had one of these?

 

The other side of it is that water consumption is a big deal for us. You may remember me from such threads as https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/99193-increasing-our-fresh-water-supply/ and https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/100943-adding-a-new-integrated-water-tank/

I therefore really liked the look of the Zanussi Lindo300 8kg which uses just 5.625l per kilogram. I did a few sums for the hellishly expensive compact washing machines that I often see recommended for boaters, and per kilo they use a lot _more_ water. Seriously, the way that some of these things are marketed - I have more than 3kg of washing to do in my lifetime, so how much it uses _per wash_ is pretty much irrelevant! And the "per annum" figures of electricity and water usage are even worse... surely that depends on how much washing you do?? But I digress...

The ultimate for me would be a fairly mechanical washing machine that plays nicely with boat electrics that I can open up and physically disconnect the heating element without causing issues, that effectively used minimal water from the hot tap.

 

Keen to share what your solution is? (Greenies for purchase links or specs to particular equipment!)

Edited May 28, 2019 by ivan&alice

[nicknorman]

We just have a compact cold feed zanussi washer and separate tumble drier.

 

Which brings up the often-forgotten point that the electrical side is not just about batteries and an inverter, it is also (in fact mainly) about replacing the electrical energy used by the washing machine. You mention solar and that may, if sufficiently large, allow you to run a washing machine in summer. But not in the dead of winter. So unless you want to got for 3 months without clean clothes you also need a means of charging the batteries, or better still a means of powering the washing machine without using the batteries. We have a travelpower on the engine to do this, but at the very least you need a decent alternator or generator.

 

As to hot /cold fill yes it won’t work if you just connect hot water to the cold inlet, and of course you will waste a lot of hot water during the many rinse cycles. Better to use a thermostatic mixer valve so that for example if you want to do a 40 deg wash, you fill with water just a little bit less than 40 and thus the heater is barely on at all. Then after the first fill, turn it to fully cold for the rinses.

 

We don’t have such a mixer system but those who do say it works well.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

The ultimate for me would be a fairly mechanical washing machine that plays nicely with boat electrics that I can open up and physically disconnect the heating element without causing issues, that effectively used minimal water from the hot tap.

We use a twin tub.

Extremely kind on electricity usage. ( 230w wash & 120 watts spin)

Uses a 'fraction' of the water an auto uses.

You put the hot water in yourself (from the cauliflower) as hot or cold as you like.

No 'programmes' to get confused.

The clothes come out dryer than from an automatic.

Costs under £100

 

A twin tub does need some 'manual involvement' (putting in clothes, adding water, switching on, removing clothes from the wash side and putting in the spin side, removing from the machine).

 

Nothing not to like.

 

Link to one similar to ours. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Portawash-twintub-portable-washing-machine-suit-caravan-motorhome-vw-camper-etc/332093735123?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3D4b2f33958b3447babe957115623ee3cf%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D352120105221%26itm%3D332093735123&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

[jetzi]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

the electrical side is not just about batteries and an inverter, it is also (in fact mainly) about replacing the electrical energy used by the washing machine. You mention solar and that may, if sufficiently large, allow you to run a washing machine in summer. But not in the dead of winter. So unless you want to got for 3 months without clean clothes you also need a means of charging the batteries, or better still a means of powering the washing machine without using the batteries. We have a travelpower on the engine to do this, but at the very least you need a decent alternator or generator. 

 

As to hot /cold fill yes it won’t work if you just connect hot water to the cold inlet, and of course you will waste a lot of hot water during the many rinse cycles. Better to use a thermostatic mixer valve so that for example if you want to do a 40 deg wash, you fill with water just a little bit less than 40 and thus the heater is barely on at all. Then after the first fill, turn it to fully cold for the rinses.

 

We don’t have such a mixer system but those who do say it works well.

Yes, at the risk of turning this into another electicity thread, I'm aware that we'll have to generate the power and solar alone won't cut it. I'd say reducing your requirements is the first step - certainly I don't want to be doing any heating at all from the electrical system, hence my interest in the hot feed. Electricity at the moment comes entirely from my alternator. I'll have to accurately audit my consumption and production to determine if this and solar will be enough to power the inverter when I get one. If not my preference would be a plumbed in diesel generator in the engine bay or failing that an alternator upgrade.

 

Could you give me a bit more detail on the thermostatic mixing valve? Are you able to set the valve to a particular temperature? What if the water isn't hot enough to make up that temperature?

 

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We use a twin tub.

Extremely kind on electricity usage. ( 230w wash & 120 watts spin)

Uses a 'fraction' of the water an auto uses.

You put the hot water in yourself (from the cauliflower) as hot or cold as you like.

No 'programmes' to get confused.

The clothes come out dryer than from an automatic.

Costs under £100

 

A twin tub does need some 'manual involvement' (putting in clothes, adding water, switching on, removing clothes from the wash side and putting in the spin side, removing from the machine).

 

Nothing not to like.

 

The twin tub option seems possible but I'm concerned that the size is so small. Seems like it would be a lot of effort - does it wash as well as an automatic? And I can imagine it uses less water than a full size auto - but do you know how much water it uses per kilogram?

[Rickent]

Also worth remembering,  Zanussi have something called grid detection, can be troublesome to run off some inverters.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

The twin tub option seems possible but I'm concerned that the size is so small.

Ours is 3kg size - is certainly enough for the two of us.

 

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

does it wash as well as an automatic?

Yes, and certainly a lot better than an Auto running on 'cold' (30* - 40*C)

 

4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

but do you know how much water it uses per kilogram?

No - (it's not my department) but probably not much more than 'a couple of kettles' full (4 litres ?) per load.

[rgreg]

Indesit standard size washer operated by a 2kw Victron inverter. It has a cold wash setting so I initially add about 4 ltrs of hot water manually then let it run its cycle without using the water heater (which is frequently an express wash with light loads). It works perfectly for me.

[nicknorman]

32 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

Could you give me a bit more detail on the thermostatic mixing valve? Are you able to set the valve to a particular temperature? What if the water isn't hot enough to make up that temperature?

 

There are a wide variety of thermostatic mixing valves available, this one is just an example and not necessarily a recommendation  but it does have an adjustable range of 30-50 which is probably OK for a washing machine feed. https://www.bes.co.uk/4-in-1-thermostatic-mixing-valve-tmv-2-3-15mm-13508?ref=gs&photo=true&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuLPnBRDjARIsACDzGL0bwVExEKlI3sx2lvcVAUT_UmVZ_DbRy_8af6kv_RHo8HG1J7-PfKsaAk9AEALw_wcB although ideally I’d want one that went colder, for the rinses.

 

It has a max hot inlet temperature of 85C so that might or might not be an issue depending on your engine thermostat setting.

 

Anyway, choose carefully as some are at a fixed temperature setting.

 

If the water isn’t hot enough to reach the set temperature, it will just fully open the hot and close the cold to get the temperature as high as it can.

Edited May 28, 2019 by nicknorman

[nicknorman]

If minimum temperature of the mixer valve is an issue, you could use an additional 3 way valve to select water to the washing machine either via the mixer, or direct from the cold supply. Something like this https://www.trinitymarinas.co.uk/product/whale-quick-connect-3-way-ball-valve-15mm-x1/ Flip the lever over to cold supply for the rinses, once the wash fill has finished.

[David Mack]

This video was recommended on the forum a few weeks ago.

https://cruisingthecut.co.uk/2019/01/28/vlog-161-soap-on-the-water/

 

[jetzi]

42 minutes ago, Rickent said:

Also worth remembering,  Zanussi have something called grid detection, can be troublesome to run off some inverters.

Is this the reason that we're told to steer clear of Zanussi? I would guess that with a pure sine wave inverter you wouldn't have any issue?

 

 

39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ours is 3kg size - is certainly enough for the two of us.

 

Yes, and certainly a lot better than an Auto running on 'cold' (30* - 40*C)

 

No - (it's not my department) but probably not much more than 'a couple of kettles' full (4 litres ?) per load.

I used to have a "single tub" manual top loading washing machine (on land). Absolutely loved it. I could put whatever temperature water I wanted into it and because it was only one tub there was no messing around with swapping clothes from one to the other. Took up less room that way, too. I'm not sure why they are so rare - seems to me that a single tub would be cheaper to manufacture, too.

 

I have also seen a 12V "camping" twin tub somewhere that looked very similar to yours. The 12V hair dryer was a joke, though, so I'd need a strong recommendation. Has anyone ever used a 12V twin tub?

I do have a bit of a bias against getting a toploader for the boat that I can't quite put my finger on. I think it might just be that we have the spot for the frontloader (that wouldn't work for a toploader). Perhaps I have just become a bit lazy for the manual work of a toploader?

 

 

19 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

There are a wide variety of thermostatic mixing valves available, this one is just an example and not necessarily a recommendation  but it does have an adjustable range of 30-50 which is probably OK for a washing machine feed. https://www.bes.co.uk/4-in-1-thermostatic-mixing-valve-tmv-2-3-15mm-13508?ref=gs&photo=true&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuLPnBRDjARIsACDzGL0bwVExEKlI3sx2lvcVAUT_UmVZ_DbRy_8af6kv_RHo8HG1J7-PfKsaAk9AEALw_wcB although ideally I’d want one that went colder, for the rinses.

 

It has a max hot inlet temperature of 85C so that might or might not be an issue depending on your engine thermostat setting.

 

Anyway, choose carefully as some are at a fixed temperature setting.

 

If the water isn’t hot enough to reach the set temperature, it will just fully open the hot and close the cold to get the temperature as high as it can.

These are great, I didn't know they existed. I wouldn't mind one of these for the shower! Is the only reason to rinse with cold to save on hot water? If so, I'm happy to use hot for that too - I think it works better and dries faster. I could set the inlet to a permanent 50 degrees.

 

25 minutes ago, David Mack said:

This video was recommended on the forum a few weeks ago.

https://cruisingthecut.co.uk/2019/01/28/vlog-161-soap-on-the-water/

 

Thanks for this! I will check out the Hotpoint WMTF722H. Looks like a solid option! I like the "cold wash" button to disable the heating element, and if I ever am on shore power then I have the option to do a hot wash.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

I have also seen a 12V "camping" twin tub somewhere that looked very similar to yours. The 12V hair dryer was a joke, though, so I'd need a strong recommendation. Has anyone ever used a 12V twin tub?

The one we have (and I linked to) are 230v.

 

 

12v stuff like washing machines and hair dryers are 'carp'.

 

When I was 'out on the road' I had a wonderful little device (a heating coil) that plugged into the cigarette lighter, and the other end you sat in a mug of water, it boiled the water so you could make a cup of tea 'on the move'.

 

After driving 8 hours+ the water was about 'body-temperature' at best.

Great in theory, useless in practice.

[jetzi]

29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

12v stuff like washing machines and hair dryers are 'carp'.

 

When I was 'out on the road' I had a wonderful little device (a heating coil) that plugged into the cigarette lighter, and the other end you sat in a mug of water, it boiled the water so you could make a cup of tea 'on the move'.

 

After driving 8 hours+ the water was about 'body-temperature' at best.

Great in theory, useless in practice.

Agreed, anything that involves heating should not be done on 12V. That hairdryer was a case in point. The missus said it would be more effective if I used my lungs. But perhaps simply the motors and pumps of a 12V washing machine would be OK?

[system 4-50]

I use a Candy GOFS (7Kg) on cold wash only then a White Knight gas tumble dryer  (which still requires 240V to turn the drum) on a Victron combi Inverter 1800W with 175A alternator. I don't know the water usage but I do notice the effect of doing half a dozen washes on my water tank (800L). I don't know what the current equivalent of the GOFS is or even if it exists.  I chose it partly for its shallow depth.  If I used a 3Kg machine wash day would last forever.

[doratheexplorer]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ours is 3kg size - is certainly enough for the two of us.

 

Yes, and certainly a lot better than an Auto running on 'cold' (30* - 40*C)

 

No - (it's not my department) but probably not much more than 'a couple of kettles' full (4 litres ?) per load.

What sort of detergent are you using and how on earth can you do a proper rinse with 4 litres of water?  The whole problem with the camping type twin tubs is that you can't rinse properly with them so you can only reasonably use non-detergent solutions such as 'eco-balls' or very gentle handwash liquid so you don't get nasty residues.  Don't expect to get really dirty clothes anything like clean.  They are also a hell of a faff.  the spinner will probably cope with one pair of wet trousers at a time and even then, if it's not positioned carefully, the machine will start shaking itself to death.  In all honesty I'd rather hand wash and use a mangle.  I assume your 'not my department' comment indicates you've never actually used yours personally?

 

On a wider point, unless you have a very good charging regime and a big pure sine inverter, don't bother trying to run a proper washing machine off batteries.  Messing around with heath robinson hot fill mixing systems isn't necessary.  Just buy a generator which is powerful enough for your machine and take the batteries out of the equation.  Then you'll only need a small inverter (or none at all) so your overall cost is no higher.  In the long run you'll probably save money since your batteries will last loads longer and your engine will save on wear and tear.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

I assume your 'not my department' comment indicates you've never actually used yours personally?

No, I haven't used it personally, it is on the 'pink jobs list'.

As I said I am only guessing about the volume of water, but whatever is used it certainly seems to remove the 'soap' (I do tend to get itchy with some washing powders and if something is not rinsed thoroughly).

 

Washing powder (I know) is Aldi non-auto or Surf.

 

I'm not saying its the best option for everyone but it certainly works for us - we have bought a  second one so we now have one on each boat.

A 15 minute wash every other day for the 'smalls' and maybe 2 or 3 washes (say an hour) once a week for shirts, jumpers, trousers etc.

[jetzi]

11 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I use a Candy GOFS (7Kg) on cold wash only then a White Knight gas tumble dryer  (which still requires 240V to turn the drum) on a Victron combi Inverter 1800W with 175A alternator. I don't know the water usage but I do notice the effect of doing half a dozen washes on my water tank (800L). I don't know what the current equivalent of the GOFS is or even if it exists.  I chose it partly for its shallow depth.  If I used a 3Kg machine wash day would last forever.

Agreed, we produce a lot of washing - we fill two large machines at the launderette per week.

I'm interested to hear more about that tumble drier - gas you say? That sounds dangerous - or not? Do you have a link or a model number for it? How much gas does it use?

Now I'm dreaming of a fully auto gas washer-drier with a 12V motor...!

17 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

On a wider point, unless you have a very good charging regime and a big pure sine inverter, don't bother trying to run a proper washing machine off batteries.  Messing around with heath robinson hot fill mixing systems isn't necessary.  Just buy a generator which is powerful enough for your machine and take the batteries out of the equation.  Then you'll only need a small inverter (or none at all) so your overall cost is no higher.  In the long run you'll probably save money since your batteries will last loads longer and your engine will save on wear and tear.

The way round I'm looking at this is to find the most energy and water efficient washing machine that will suit my needs and then think about how I'm going to power it. Please let me know if you disagree with this approach. Being that I have no 240V at all right now, I can size my system appropriately. A large but quiet diesel generator in the engine bay plumbed into both my fuel and electrical system sounds like the ultimate.

[bizzard]

7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Agreed, we produce a lot of washing - we fill two large machines at the launderette per week.

I'm interested to hear more about that tumble drier - gas you say? That sounds dangerous - or not? Do you have a link or a model number for it? How much gas does it use?

Now I'm dreaming of a fully auto gas washer-drier with a 12V motor...!

The way round I'm looking at this is to find the most energy and water efficient washing machine that will suit my needs and then think about how I'm going to power it. Please let me know if you disagree with this approach. Being that I have no 240V at all right now, I can size my system appropriately. A large but quiet diesel generator in the engine bay plumbed into both my fuel and electrical system sounds like the ultimate.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, bizzard said:

 

 

You got the 'dolly-tub' but where is the 'Ponch' ?

 

[howardang]

Where I come from that is known as a Posser or Posser stick, not a Ponch. Is that a Lincolnshire variation?

 

 

Howard

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, howardang said:

Where I come from that is known as a Posser or Posser stick, not a Ponch. Is that a Lincolnshire variation?

 

 

Howard

Nottinghamshire.

 

My Grandmother never used anything else - never had any sort of 'machine'.

Her 'dolly-tub' and 'ponch' lived in the shed and came out on Mondays for 'wash-day'.

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Nottinghamshire.

 

My Grandmother never used anything else - never had any sort of 'machine'.

Her 'dolly-tub' and 'ponch' lived in the shed and came out on Mondays for 'wash-day'.

Called a dolly stick round these parts. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Called a dolly stick round these parts. 

Makes sense "Dolly-Tub & Dolly-Stick"

[hider]

Zanussi  KWC1300 washer on a blending thermostat set to 40 deg. running off 90A alternator, 1800w pure sine inverter. Only wash when moving so hot water and electricity are not a problem.

Rinses with warm water too, clothes dry faster and are fresher with no detergent residues. Quick program uses not a lot of water and takes about 50 minutes providing the water is warm at the start. The heating element rarely comes on at all. As we are moving, the water is warm again soon after the wash is finished.

I leave a 240v reading lamp on whilst washing else the washer gets confused because the inverter goes into standby in the final spin pause period but its not a problem.

No space for a built in genny and would hate to run one on the bank for wash day.

[jetzi]

Here comes the spreadsheet!



I know, I know. I need to go out and look at washing machines, and let the right one find me. ?

 

Based on this, I'm leaning towards the Hotpoint used by CtC or the Lindo300 with a thermostat mixer valve.