My big boat convered to electric drive

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

So taday after the solar had stopped charging I found I have used 8.2 kWh to make the journey from Rotherham to Sheffield 

Fixed that for you. 

[peterboat]

17 hours ago, Johny London said:

Well done Peter! Saving the planet and boating - it's the way forward.

When you say 5 hours cruising - is that including when stationary at locks etc? You said something about turning the motor off? I presume that the great thing about having electric drive is that in actual fact, when the time is spent doing locks etc, you aren't using any power.

Put me down for one

Yes it is, every lock on Tinsley flight is manned but you should help if possible, so a relatively short journey takes a long time, the motor is always turned off as soon as I cut power , there is a switch in the throttle controller which turns off the motor controller as well, to save power at a standstill. The only thing running all the time is the blower motor to cool the motor and motor controller, as heat is the enemy of electrical components

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

  The only thing running all the time is the blower motor to cool the motor and motor controller, as heat is the enemy of electrical components

Do you have that set to continue running at the end of the day for a set time

[peterboat]

20 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Do you have that set to continue running at the end of the day for a set time

Just leave it running whilst mooring up,then check how hot the motor is when I operate the greaser, the motor is normally hand hot controller cold

[IanD]

On 19/04/2019 at 21:49, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What did it stop like with only 3hp? This is where a dozen or so HP gets really useful.

 

 

 

 

It stopped like it accelerated -- slowly. We only hit another boat coming the other way once, we'd whistled coming up to a bridge on a blind bend but he just barged though at top speed. Never mind, we were much heavier than he was...

[Jen-in-Wellies]

On 21/04/2019 at 10:04, peterboat said:

Yes it is, every lock on Tinsley flight is manned but you should help if possible, so a relatively short journey takes a long time, the motor is always turned off as soon as I cut power , there is a switch in the throttle controller which turns off the motor controller as well, to save power at a standstill. The only thing running all the time is the blower motor to cool the motor and motor controller, as heat is the enemy of electrical components

Was nice to meet you and see the boat in action. I assume you made it back OK!

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Was nice to meet you and see the boat in action. I assume you made it back OK!

Yes I did, I finished up the journey with a battery reading of 65% so I have disconnected solar to the drive batteries [LifePo4s dont like to be left fully charged] until the next time I go out. It was nice meeting yourself, I will pop back and have a chat next week if thats ok? I wouldnt mind a look at your solar setup

[peterboat]

deleted

 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by peterboat

[peterboat]

deleted video failed

[peterboat]

I am still using the boat on a regular basis, this weekend we popped up the canal for 2 hours or so, we set off with batteries at 60% luckily it was a sunny day and with 3.7 kw of solar putting plenty of charge into the batteries they were down to 50% at journeys end. Through the day they charged up to nearly full and this morning they were charged. Today was very windy, I was against the current, and the sun wasnt shining as bright as yesterday, still I was back at the mooring in under two hours with 75% still in the batteries. They are turned off now and the solar is feeding the immersion heater [waste not want not for the solar] ? We are hoping to go out again next weekend, further afield so I will charge up the batteries to full first this time, I am also checking things like how hot the motor gets and checking the alignment to the prop [friction is wasted energy and a hot motor] The motor flat out on fully charged batteries will consume 23 KW so the motor is doing 30.66666 HP, on the cruise I have settled down at just over 3kw, so on sunny days I can cruise as long as I want, on no sun days I have 16 KWhs to play with so 5 hours or so is my limit, as their is nearly always some solar coming in I am happy with my boat.

I will post some videos honestly  but if anyone really want to see it now I can whatsapp them

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Whenever electric drive comes up for inland boating one of the big objections is always the lack of charging infrastructure and the cost of installing it for CaRT and the other navigation authorities. The end of being able to moor out in the sticks, away from charging points. @peterboat's solution is to cover the roof of his wide beam with solar panels. It works well, but limits cruising in the winter. I came up with the idea of going back to using the tow paths for towing boats again with little electric tractors. Towing tractors use much less power to move a boat than a turning propeller in water, which could be supplied with a smaller solar array and less time on canalside charging points. The reason why towing was used when the canals were built was lack of power available to move boats. Horse power (around 750W) really meaning horse power in those days. Towing tractors would require a big change in the way people boat, relearning old skills and needing the restoration of lost canal infrastructure, so is not an ideal solution.

 

The number of canalside recharging points required for conversion of most of the fleet to electric propeller drive depends on a number of factors. How many boats are cruising, more in  the summer and on sunny days and on how long it takes to recharge a set of propulsion batteries. People on the forum have been concentrating more on the former, than the later, assuming that recharging is going to take hours, hogging a charging point and making it impractical to convert the canal fleet to electric, without putting expensive charging points practically everywhere.

 

A lot of research is going in to reducing charging times for electric car batteries. Charging time is a big problem for them as it makes long journeys less practical beyond the on board battery range. As an example, a piece of research reported here to reduce Lithium battery charging time to 10 minutes to 80% full. There is a long way to go between a university research study and real use out in the world, but it shows the general trend.

 

Ten minutes to recharge a set of propulsion batteries is an interesting figure. It typically takes ten minutes to take a boat through a narrow lock, a bit longer to take two boats through a wide. On canals with locks and no very long pounds, boats automatically space themselves out at ten minute intervals in each direction. If at a few locations the canal had high current fast chargers, then charging could be done on each boat as it passed, giving them enough charge for a days boating, without clogging up the charging points, or causing queues, or delays. If the boat uses Li batteries for domestic use, then these could be charged simultaneously. This hugely reduces the number of charging points required. Cost would be further reduced by picking locations that are close to high power supply lines, reducing the infrastructure build needed. If boats have some solar photovoltaics on board, then they can moor for days out in the sticks in summer, using the solar to keep their domestic Li batts charged, then move on to the next recharging point at a lock to recharge the propulsion batteries.

 

So, in practice, how might this work. On the Macclesfield Canal and upper Peak Forest, heading north. You have a charging point near the junction with the T&M, one between Hall Green and Bosley locks, one between Bosley and Marple and one at Whaley Bridge, or Bugsworth Basin. When you arrive at a charge point you moor up, connect the charge lead and wait ten minutes, disconnect and go on your way. Time wise on your journey, it is like adding an extra lock each day. I did consider putting the chargers at locks so they could be recharged while in the chamber, but the risk of hanging up the boat on the cable, the trip hazard and adding extra complication in a situation that requires a lot of concentration by the crew seemed too tricky.

 

The exception to the ten minute boat spacing is when marinas and other moorings are adding boats to the canal on a nice day. However, boats in marinas can be charged by slow, low current charging from their existing bollards, so they are entering the canal fully charged up and many will return to their marina mooring that day, or after an overnight stop near a pub. Other moorings would need electric charging added, but again, they could be done with normal 16A mains bollards, not the very high current charging points needed for ten minute charging of boats on the move.

 

What do you think?

 

Jen

Edited October 31, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

What do you think?

 

The canals will be filled in and built over before any of that comes to pass!

 

 

[Dr Bob]

22 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

What do you think?

 

 

I like it.

Have a greenie.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I like it.

Have a greenie.

Why thank you. ?

[zenataomm]

The image of two electric tractors meeting face to face on a crumbly midlands towpath is only surpassed by the imagined conversation between two ex solo boaters in a pub.

"I remember the good old days when I could boat on my own the whole length of The G.U. without crew.  Now while I steer I need someone to drive the tractor and another two running backwards and forwards with long poles to lift the towline over bushes, small trees and the rooves of permanent moorers " 

 

Still I imagine Waterways would earn decent income from charging entry to the massive stadia they'd build every few miles so the great unwashed could sit on a Sunday and watch. 

The attraction of the above activity interfacing while cyclists and fishing matches argue with each other would be more entertaining than Alton Towers.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Adding a bit more. This piggybacks on the development work being done on fast charging for cars and other road vehicles. By the time CaRT, the EA and other navigation authorities come to install it, all the development work has been done and paid for and thousands are being built for the road network. This gets the cost down considerably, especially if standard charging plugs and posts are used. Again, the billing of boaters for their charger use is taken care of, using the same methods developed for cars. For boaters that have converted their boats to battery electric driven propeller they get a bill for their charger use, instead of forking out for diesel fill ups. Very little change in boating this way, compared with the tractor idea. It still allows single handing, where tractors would need to be self driving for that to be possible. As the boat fleet is slowly converted, then diesel fill up options become more limited. At some point, new diesel installations may get banned. Tax on diesel, or bans on entering some city centres may make conversion an imperative. All these are political decisions and may come faster than many people think. For example, the upcoming Amsterdam diesel boat ban.

 

Jen

Edited October 31, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Whenever electric drive comes up for inland boating one of the big objections is always the lack of charging infrastructure and the cost of installing it for CaRT and the other navigation authorities. The end of being able to moor out in the sticks, away from charging points. @peterboat's solution is to cover the roof of his wide beam with solar panels. It works well, but limits cruising in the winter. I came up with the idea of going back to using the tow paths for towing boats again with little electric tractors. Towing tractors use much less power to move a boat than a turning propeller in water, which could be supplied with a smaller solar array and less time on canalside charging points. The reason why towing was used when the canals were built was lack of power available to move boats. Horse power (around 750W) really meaning horse power in those days. Towing tractors would require a big change in the way people boat, relearning old skills and needing the restoration of lost canal infrastructure, so is not an ideal solution.

 

The number of canalside recharging points required for conversion of most of the fleet to electric propeller drive depends on a number of factors. How many boats are cruising, more in  the summer and on sunny days and on how long it takes to recharge a set of propulsion batteries. People on the forum have been concentrating more on the former, than the later, assuming that recharging is going to take hours, hogging a charging point and making it impractical to convert the canal fleet to electric, without putting expensive charging points practically everywhere.

 

A lot of research is going in to reducing charging times for electric car batteries. Charging time is a big problem for them as it makes long journeys less practical beyond the on board battery range. As an example, a piece of research reported here to reduce Lithium battery charging time to 10 minutes to 80% full. There is a long way to go between a university research study and real use out in the world, but it shows the general trend.

 

Ten minutes to recharge a set of propulsion batteries is an interesting figure. It typically takes ten minutes to take a boat through a narrow lock, a bit longer to take two boats through a wide. On canals with locks and no very long pounds, boats automatically space themselves out at ten minute intervals in each direction. If at a few locations the canal had high current fast chargers, then charging could be done on each boat as it passed, giving them enough charge for a days boating, without clogging up the charging points, or causing queues, or delays. If the boat uses Li batteries for domestic use, then these could be charged simultaneously. This hugely reduces the number of charging points required. Cost would be further reduced by picking locations that are close to high power supply lines, reducing the infrastructure build needed. If boats have some solar photovoltaics on board, then they can moor for days out in the sticks in summer, using the solar to keep their domestic Li batts charged, then move on to the next recharging point at a lock to recharge the propulsion batteries.

 

So, in practice, how might this work. On the Macclesfield Canal and upper Peak Forest, heading north. You have a charging point near the junction with the T&M, one between Hall Green and Bosley locks, one between Bosley and Marple and one at Whaley Bridge, or Bugsworth Basin. When you arrive at a charge point you moor up, connect the charge lead and wait ten minutes, disconnect and go on your way. Time wise on your journey, it is like adding an extra lock each day. I did consider putting the chargers at locks so they could be recharged while in the chamber, but the risk of hanging up the boat on the cable, the trip hazard and adding extra complication in a situation that requires a lot of concentration by the crew seemed too tricky.

 

The exception to the ten minute boat spacing is when marinas and other moorings are adding boats to the canal on a nice day. However, boats in marinas can be charged by slow, low current charging from their existing bollards, so they are entering the canal fully charged up and many will return to their marina mooring that day, or after an overnight stop near a pub. Other moorings would need electric charging added, but again, they could be done with normal 16A mains bollards, not the very high current charging points needed for ten minute charging of boats on the move.

 

What do you think?

 

Jen

 

The fast chargers are powered by three phase electricity. The electricity companies  charge significantly more for this than they do for single phase supplies, because of the additional infrastructure needed to support it.

 

I don't think the volumes of boats using it would justify the cost.

Edited October 31, 2019 by cuthound
Clarification

[Jen-in-Wellies]

5 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The fast chargers are powered by three phase electricity. The electricity companies  charge significantly more for this than they do for single phase supplies, because of the additional infrastructure needed to support it.

Good point. However, fast chargers are likely to become much more common for vehicle charging, so there is going to be pressure to reduce the cost charged by the leccy suppliers for installation. Another advantage for the inland waterways piggybacking on the much bigger road transport change to electric drive.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Good point. However, fast chargers are likely to become much more common for vehicle charging, so there is going to be pressure to reduce the cost charged by the leccy suppliers. Another advantage for the inland waterways piggybacking on the much bigger road transport change to electric drive.

 

Won't happen, unless the electricity providers are re-nationalised. When I was working I was involved in a couple of brand new data centres. The electricity supplier charged about £1,000 per kW to provide a local 3 phase supply.

Edited October 31, 2019 by cuthound
Won't, not don't

[Jen-in-Wellies]

7 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Don't happen, unless the electricity providers are re-nationalised

The policy of a major party contesting a certain general election.

 

I've also been involved with getting 3 phase supplies to commercial buildings upgraded. Generally, they will charge whatever they can get away with and be obstructive and slow.

CaRT has considerable purchasing power. What I pay for electric on a CaRT mooring is considerably below what I used to pay at a private marina. All down to the deal that CaRT could get for a deal for all its locations.

Jen

Edited October 31, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The policy of a major party contesting a certain general election.

 

I've also been involved with getting 3 phase supplies to commercial buildings upgraded. Generally, they will charge whatever they can get away with and be obstructive and slow.

CaRT has considerable purchasing power. What I pay for electric on a CaRT mooring is considerably below what I used to pay at a private marina. All down to the deal that CaRT could get for a deal for all its locations.

Jen

It's perfectly possible both technically and commercially for CART to provide recharging points along the canals, just like water points; the number needed would be negligible compared to those that will be needed for cars, and they can make money back by selling the electricity at a markup -- even at double the wholesale cost it would still be cheaper than diesel by the time you account for the much higher efficiency.

 

It wouldn't even need the super-fast charging required by cars, the obvious time to charge up would be when stopping to fill up with water when you're already moored for typically half an hour or so.

 

But it's chicken and egg as usual; until enough boaters have electric boats to make it worth their while they won't do it across the network (which is necessary, a few isolated points are useless), but until this network of recharging points exists not enough boaters will buy electric boats.

 

To make it work there would have to be a definite CART policy to push towards electric boats "for the good of the waterways", presumably backed by government money to pay for the initial rollout and with escalating incentives (presumably also monetary) to discourage continued use of diesel and encourage people to switch to electric.

 

Whether CART has the vision to push for this (and the government the will to pay for it initially) is the big stumbling block...

[cuthound]

Quoted instead of editing. Doh ?

Edited October 31, 2019 by cuthound

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

It wouldn't even need the super-fast charging required by cars, the obvious time to charge up would be when stopping to fill up with water when you're already moored for typically half an hour or so.

Good thinking. Slower, cheaper to install charging points would be ideal at water points. Just don't try sticking the hose in to the boat socket, or the plug in to the water tank! Similarly, a popular mooring site might get half a dozen slow, overnight charging points. You would still need fast charging points for boats on the move and mooring out in the sticks to prevent queues, at a frequency of at least one every six to eight hours of cruising, assuming that boats end up with enough battery capacity for a full day and a bit of cruising.

 

Jen

Edited October 31, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

and they can make money back by selling the electricity at a markup -- even at double the wholesale cost it would still be cheaper than diesel by the time you account for the much higher efficiency.

Except it is illegal to sell electricity for more than you pay for it. - Bang goes that idea !!!

 

We have a caravan site and can only sell electricity for what we pay for it (we have a 3-phase supply) and therefore have to sell at 12.5p per unit.

We can however charge £35 per years service charge for the provision of the 'service'.

 

I just cannot see how 30,000 boaters who all convert to electric drives will fund the £ millions needed in the infrastructure. C&RT cannot make any profit on the resale so where does the money come from ?

 

 

The resale of gas and electricity: Guidance on maximum resale price (updated October 2005)

Publication date

13th October 2005

Information types

• Guidance

Policy areas

• Domestic consumers
• Electricity - distribution
• Electricity - retail markets
• Gas - distribution
• Gas - retail markets

From 1 January 2003 the maximum price at which gas or electricity may be resold is the same price as that paid by the person who is reselling it ("the reseller"), including any standing charges.

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/resale-gas-and-electricity-guidance-maximum-resale-price-updated-october-2005

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2005/10/11782-resaleupdateoct05_3.pdf

[Jen-in-Wellies]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Except it is illegal to sell electricity for more than you pay for it. - Bang goes that idea !!!

That doesn't  apply to electricity for transport, only domestic use to prevent folks in flats, marinas and caravan parks being ripped off. For example, Pod Point are charging around 24p/kWhr from their charging points, compared with 14 to 15p per kWhr for most domestic suppliers. Opportunity for CaRT to finance the cost of the installation, just like any vehicle charging point provider. The idea hasn't gone Bang!!!

 

Could be "interesting", if people are also charging their domestic batteries at the same time as their propulsion one. Are they going to need to do a self declared domestic/propulsion split?!