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My big boat convered to electric drive


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22 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

That doesn't  apply to electricity for transport, only domestic use to prevent folks in flats, marinas and caravan parks being ripped off. For example, Pod Point are charging around 24p/kWhr from their charging points, compared with 14 to 15p per kWhr for most domestic suppliers. Opportunity for CaRT to finance the cost of the installation, just like any vehicle charging point provider. The idea hasn't gone Bang!!!

 

Could be "interesting", if people are also charging their domestic batteries at the same time as their propulsion one. Are they going to need to do a self declared domestic/propulsion split?!

Would you be kind enough to point me to the legislation that allows 'resellers of electricity for transport' to charge whatever they want.

I like to try and keep abreast of the legislation - particularly as we may have to provide car charging points at the caravan park.

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

Edit to add :

 

Many thanks for the 'tip' you are correct and having now found & read the Ofgem decisions and amendments to the guidance I see you are correct in that basically any supplier of electricity can charge EV users any amount they want but must indicate the pricing to allow the EV owner to make an informed decision about the cost.

 

 

HOWEVER (and it is a big HOWEVER)

 

Supply of Electricity for marine craft / boats is specifically excluded.

 

It looks as if C&RT will fall under the legislation of a Landlord supplying electricity for personal / domestic use.

 

Ofgem Notice :

 

Decision on the application of the Maximum Resale Price to the resale of electricity for charging electric vehicles 
 
This letter sets out our decision that the Maximum Resale Price (MRP) provisions do not apply to the resale of electricity from charge points for use by electric vehicles (EVs). We expect this clarification to alleviate concerns that the MRP could act as a barrier to the commercial expansion of charge points. It is also consistent with the exclusion of the resale of gas for use in the propulsion of a motor vehicle by the Gas Act 198
6.1 

 

Extract :

 

“charge point” means any equipment, apparatus or appliance used for, or for the purpose connected with the supply of electricity solely to provide motive force for an electric motor vehicle. 
“electric motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle that uses electric drive to power or assist in the propulsion of the motor vehicle, other than an electric marine craft
“marine craft” includes a vessel, boat, hovercraft or any other description of water craft.  

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Would you be kind enough to point me to the legislation that allows 'resellers of electricity for transport' to charge whatever they want.

I like to try and keep abreast of the legislation - particularly as we may have to provide car charging points at the caravan park.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

I suspect it is more the lack of legislation preventing it, rather than legislation allowing it. The suppliers of charging points are mostly selling it at much more than the usual domestic rate. The only exception seems to be Tesla, where it is free from their charging points to their own customers as a loss leader to encourage people to buy their cars.

If you think about it, most organisations buying and selling electricity have to charge more than they pay for it, or go bust. Capitalism and all that. The power station owner will charge the grid more than it costs to make. More when there is more demand. Companies will give a better deal to large users, like CaRT and will charge more than they will smaller ones and more than they buy it for. It is only people in your situation that are specifically prevented from putting a mark up on the electricity they sell and have to cover the installation and maintenance cost through other means.

 

I have no idea how the legislation would apply in your situation. Not being a lawyer and all that. I am aware of the one that prevents you putting a mark up on domestic power to your customers and that this doesn't apply to others selling it for vehicle charging.

 

Jen

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4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I suspect it is more the lack of legislation preventing it, rather than legislation allowing it. The suppliers of charging points are mostly selling it at much more than the usual domestic rate. The only exception seems to be Tesla, where it is free from their charging points to their own customers as a loss leader to encourage people to buy their cars.

If you think about it, most organisations buying and selling electricity have to charge more than they pay for it, or go bust. Capitalism and all that. The power station owner will charge the grid more than it costs to make. More when there is more demand. Companies will give a better deal to large users, like CaRT and will charge more than they will smaller ones and more than they buy it for. It is only people in your situation that are specifically prevented from putting a mark up on the electricity they sell and have to cover the installation and maintenance cost through other means.

 

I have no idea how the legislation would apply in your situation. Not being a lawyer and all that. I am aware of the one that prevents you putting a mark up on domestic power to your customers and that this doesn't apply to others selling it for vehicle charging.

 

Jen

 

Many thanks.

 

I'll have to investigate further (or resist putting in EV points).

When they charge their cars from the 'domestic' supply they will get 'price restricted' eleccy, but if I put in EV Bollards I can charge what I want.

I wonder which method they will use ?

 

Did you note above that Marine / boats are specifically excluded from the charging 'relaxation'.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 hours ago, IanD said:

It wouldn't even need the super-fast charging required by cars, the obvious time to charge up would be when stopping to fill up with water when you're already moored for typically half an hour or so.

You will need many more charging points than water points, we can go up to 10 days between water, but normally do 7, and I expect that daily water refills of half an hour are not common.

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8 minutes ago, PeterF said:

You will need many more charging points than water points, we can go up to 10 days between water, but normally do 7, and I expect that daily water refills of half an hour are not common.

Or fewer faster charging points, so each boat is on it for a shorter time. It is really only hire boats with half a dozen people on board who are filling up with water every day.

 

Jen

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And at the moment everyone seems to be assuming the govt will not charge any duty on leccy sold for charging cars or boats. 

 

When the sales of petrol and diesel dry up I can't imagine the govt NOT loading the sale of propulsion electricity to exactly the same degree as petrol and diesel get now. 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And at the moment everyone seems to be assuming the govt will not charge any duty on leccy sold for charging cars or boats. 

 

When the sales of petrol and diesel dry up I can't imagine the govt NOT loading the sale of propulsion electricity to exactly the same degree as petrol and diesel get now. 

 

 

 

For sure. Transport fuel duty is a big earner for them. It will have to be replaced somehow.

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10 minutes ago, Narrowboat Nimrod said:

The demand in the next couple of decades to recharge cars and a tiny handful of boats will outstrip  generating capacity and just cause more reliance on coal fired power. If you buy  an electric car or boat you might feel a bit greener but you will still be burning fossil fuels well into the future.

That might be difficult.

We only have 6 power stations left - three which are due to close in 2020 and the rest by 2025

 

http://www.powerstations.uk/coal-countdown/

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 minutes ago, Narrowboat Nimrod said:

The demand in the next couple of decades to recharge cars and a tiny handful of boats will outstrip  generating capacity and just cause more reliance on coal fired power. If you buy  an electric car or boat you might feel a bit greener but you will still be burning fossil fuels well into the future.

 

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That might be difficult.

We only have 6 power stations left - three which are due to close in 2020 and the rest by 2025

 

http://www.powerstations.uk/coal-countdown/

True Alan but they are building the next largest wind farm in the world of our coast! I suspect the chicken and egg principle for green electric is happening constantly. Also at some point the new nuclear will come on line 

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

True Alan but they are building the next largest wind farm in the world of our coast! I suspect the chicken and egg principle for green electric is happening constantly. Also at some point the new nuclear will come on line 

 

I know - I was simply pointing out the errors in the statement :

 

21 minutes ago, Narrowboat Nimrod said:

The demand in the next couple of decades to recharge cars and a tiny handful of boats will outstrip  generating capacity and just cause more reliance on coal fired power.

 

With no coal fired Power Stations left, it will be very difficult to become reliant on them.

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27 minutes ago, Narrowboat Nimrod said:

The demand in the next couple of decades to recharge cars and a tiny handful of boats will outstrip  generating capacity and just cause more reliance on coal fired power. If you buy  an electric car or boat you might feel a bit greener but you will still be burning fossil fuels well into the future.

Again missing the point -- it's 100% certain that there will be a massive increase in the number of car charging points and a way will be found to both pay for the installation and provide the power, because it has to be. There are about 1000x fewer boats on the canals than cars in the UK, so this problem is 1000x easier to solve. CART doesn't have to solve the power provision problem, it can ride on the coat-tails of whoever solves it for cars. The drive behind this will be the same as for cars -- roughly half the total CO2 emissions even if the power comes from fossil fuels, and zero local pollution -- no more diesel fumes and noise. Yes there will be people who say "but I want to keep my diesel engine and run it for several hours per day making noise and smells because it's dirt cheap and I've got one" -- well they'll be discouraged from doing this by taxes/surcharges, just like diesel cars in ULEZ.

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8 minutes ago, IanD said:

Again missing the point -- it's 100% certain that there will be a massive increase in the number of car charging points and a way will be found to both pay for the installation and provide the power, because it has to be. There are about 1000x fewer boats on the canals than cars in the UK, so this problem is 1000x easier to solve. CART doesn't have to solve the power provision problem, it can ride on the coat-tails of whoever solves it for cars. The drive behind this will be the same as for cars -- roughly half the total CO2 emissions even if the power comes from fossil fuels, and zero local pollution -- no more diesel fumes and noise. Yes there will be people who say "but I want to keep my diesel engine and run it for several hours per day making noise and smells because it's dirt cheap and I've got one" -- well they'll be discouraged from doing this by taxes/surcharges, just like diesel cars in ULEZ.

Also large solar arrays will reduce dependence on charging points to an extent. For once I am ahead of game 

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A good place to put a fast 10 minute charge point would be just before and just after a lock. Arriving at a lock, assuming no queue, there is a fifty/fifty chance it is set against you. If it is against you, then you've got time to plug in the boat while setting the lock, or waiting for someone to come down. If there is a queue of boats waiting, then you can get a charge in while you wait to get to the head. If the lock is in your favour, then you can use it straight away and plug in on the other side for a charge up, while the boat that was waiting for you goes in to the lock after charging up. No doubt a fair and speedy way of doing this will need to be worked through and incorporated in to lock use etiquette. Hardly any delay to your trip at all, or much of a change in the way you would boat by diesel. All this assumes that batteries able to withstand such fast charging become a reality as they are very much in the development stage. As @IanD says, we are piggybacking on the huge investment that is going to be made for road transport.

 

Jen

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4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

All this assumes that batteries able to withstand such fast charging become a reality as they are very much in the development stage.

It also assumes that someone will stump up the not inconsiderable cost of providing an electricity supply to the locks.

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I agree with the charge at the lock idea. 

Far better than at the water point as these will just get more congested.

If you can charge a 70KW lithium bank on a Tesla in 30 mins, you could certainly charge a 7KW bank on a bote in 10mins.....and 7KW is the size of mine........in fact 5mins would be enough power the domestics for a day. 

Maybe need to stay 10 mins for the drive batteries once per day.

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26 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I agree with the charge at the lock idea. 

Far better than at the water point as these will just get more congested.

If you can charge a 70KW lithium bank on a Tesla in 30 mins, you could certainly charge a 7KW bank on a bote in 10mins.....and 7KW is the size of mine........in fact 5mins would be enough power the domestics for a day. 

Maybe need to stay 10 mins for the drive batteries once per day.

I don't think it scales like that. Think charge rate, rather than overall capacity. If a 70kW Tesla bank charges in 30 minutes, then a 7kW bank with the same type of batteries will still take 30 minutes to charge. Each cell can only take so large a charge current without damage. Increasing the charge rate means doing clever stuff with the battery technology. Five, or ten minute charge times are an aspiration for maybe five years time.

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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30 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I agree with the charge at the lock idea. 

Far better than at the water point as these will just get more congested.

If you can charge a 70KW lithium bank on a Tesla in 30 mins, you could certainly charge a 7KW bank on a bote in 10mins.....and 7KW is the size of mine........in fact 5mins would be enough power the domestics for a day. 

Maybe need to stay 10 mins for the drive batteries once per day.

Aren't we talking charging for electric propulsion here Dr Bob?  Your current battery capacity would be woefully inadequate for that.

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Just now, Sea Dog said:

Aren't we talking charging for electric propulsion here Dr Bob?  Your current battery capacity would be woefully inadequate for that.

Yes,   defo for propulsion but the minimum you need is enough for the domestics. I was just pointing out how quick it can be done...and of course Jen is right on timing until the size of the charging units becomes the key factor. The new Tesla can be charged to 80% in 30 mins, that is 60KWhr of capacity. Wow. That's a big charger. Wot's Peterboats bank size for a big bathtub? I think it is a lot smaller than the Tesla. ...maybe 25KWhr ish ? 

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1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

 

Yes,   defo for propulsion but the minimum you need is enough for the domestics. I was just pointing out how quick it can be done...and of course Jen is right on timing until the size of the charging units becomes the key factor. The new Tesla can be charged to 80% in 30 mins, that is 60KWhr of capacity. Wow. That's a big charger. Wot's Peterboats bank size for a big bathtub? I think it is a lot smaller than the Tesla. ...maybe 25KWhr ish ? 

So, how big does the cabling need to be to carry that amount of current to the average lock? Maybe we could mitigate by using high voltage?  The practicalities mean that this idea wouldn't float even if we all voted Green in December.

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27 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If a 70kW Tesla bank charges in 30 minutes, then a 7kW bank with the same type of batteries will still take 30 minutes to charge.

 

And if the same capacity battery is charged in ten minutes, then the charge current necessarily goes up threefold. 

 

So to charge a 70kWhr propulsion battery at a lock in ten minutes, a truly massive amount of energy will need to be sucked from the grid in just ten minutes. This will demand really high voltage transmission cables or locally stored energy. Super-capacitor technology perhaps. 

 

All too expensive to actually happen, I suspect. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

Yes,   defo for propulsion but the minimum you need is enough for the domestics. I was just pointing out how quick it can be done...and of course Jen is right on timing until the size of the charging units becomes the key factor. The new Tesla can be charged to 80% in 30 mins, that is 60KWhr of capacity. Wow. That's a big charger. Wot's Peterboats bank size for a big bathtub? I think it is a lot smaller than the Tesla. ...maybe 25KWhr ish ? 

The big boat has has 30 x 36 volt 1.15 KWH batteries Bob, I may have 32 depends on how the repairs go to them, the old bank was 10 x 12 volt 1.6 KWH batteries, so the new system is substantially bigger than the old one, it will run at 72 volts nominally. I was just installing it before I came to Scotland for a working holiday, I have run the central heating pipes though the boxes so that they can charge in safety in the winter. I also have my BSS as well whilst doing this install poo!!

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Does anyone have any real world knowledge of high power transmission lines and the cost of getting it to a location and transforming it down to something usable by a charger? This is completely out of my field and I'm struggling to find it. Without some actual figures we are just left with people saying it'll be too expensive on gut feel. Bear in mind that this investment is already being made at places like motorway service stations for charging many cars at once, some in as little as 30 minutes.

 

Some numbers to work with.

@peterboat has 35kWhr of propulsion batteries in his boat. Charging from 20% to 80% will need 21kWhr, assuming no losses. This would be 126kW of power to do in ten minutes. Say a round 150kW of power to be drawn down the power line to charge one boat in such a short time. The fastest Tesla car chargers were at 120kW a year ago. Say you have to get 150kW on average a mile from a high voltage grid line to an isolated lock. Higher voltage means lower current, but bigger costs, so there is a balance point.

 

Jen

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2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Does anyone have any real world knowledge of high power transmission lines and the cost of getting it to a location and transforming it down to something usable by a charger?

I can only relate my own experience from when we had the house built 'out in the wilds' in 2005.

 

There was a power line / pole (not a pylon) 300 yards from where we were building.

We had to purchase (pay for) a 200 amp transformer, an additional 'pole' to be mounted alongside the original pole (to mount the transformer onto) and the installation of the cabling to the building.

 

I dug the trench myself, ran the trunking and backfilled the trench.

 

The leccy board installed the transformer, 'pulled the cable' and left the end sticking out of the ground for my Electrician to connect up to our 'fuse box'.

 

The cost of the transformer, additional pole, 300 yards of Split concentric cable, & pulling the cable was £20,000 + VAT

 

That was only a 200 amp supply.

 

I imagine that the supply for these 'fast chargers' (particularly if they are 'daisy chained' along the towpath) would run into 1000's of amps and cables as 'thick as your wrist'

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