Diesel Vs Electric

[Fly Navy]

Touchy topic, I know but the more spoken about it, the clearer it becomes, not to mention the more acceptable the inevitable will become!

 

The UK government have proposed to ban the manufacture of internal combustion engines by 2040.

The Green Alliance think tank are lobbying the government to bring this forward to 2030.

Diesel engines are now the bad boy of motoring where car manufacturers are having to curtail their output due to bad press.

Environmentalists have the demiase of diesel firmly in their sights.

 

So we have roughly 20 (maybe 10!) years to go before diesel engines become unavailable (as new) and consequently diesel supply will start to reduce. Obviously those with existing diesel engines in their cars/boats/lawnmowers/tractors will need access to a supply - but at what cost? [How much will the government charge / gallon, to make it an unattractive option?

And will ther government offer incentives to replace your existing diesel engine with new technology engines? (As they did electric cars for a while).

 

So the big question is - IF (and it is a big IF) the environmentalists get their way and IC engines cease in 10 years time. How long thereafter, will there be a government mandate to stop using diesel?

The consequences being that every NB in the UK (32,000 are there?) will need to replace its engine for electgric presumably?).

Secondly - for those where the costs of converting are too much - will their boat depreciate exponentially?

[IE: Will a £50k NB (now) become a £5k NB in 2035 for instance????

Are there any NB manufacturers converting and tooling across to hybrid/electric?

Are the Canal Trust taking this seriously and researching charging points along canal routes.

 

It will be eerie though - all these boats navigating the canals in complete silence..................?

[Johny London]

Embrace the change I say - and lets finally get into the 21st century. A nice quiet stink free cruising experience awaits. All we need is proper batteries, more solar, and charging points at all vm's. I just hope that with added infrastructure, the easy going nature of boating isn't crimped. Ie cctv, "parking wardens" etc etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Fly Navy said:

The consequences being that every NB in the UK (32,000 are there?) will need to replace its engine for electgric presumably?).

Why just look at NB's ?# and why just consider C&RT waters ?

 

There were just over 75,000 'Powered Boats' registered on the inland waterways in the year 2007 and I would suggest the vast majority have diesel engines,

 

There are (probably) 100s of thousands of leisure boats with diesel engines in UK waters (think of all the 'Gin Palaces' and sailing boats dotted around the coast).

There are (probably) 10s of thousands of commercial boats (from Trip boats to Trawlers to Ferries) with diesel engines in UK waters

Edited February 4, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, Fly Navy said:

Touchy topic, I know but the more spoken about it, the clearer it becomes, not to mention the more acceptable the inevitable will become!

 

The UK government have proposed to ban the manufacture of internal combustion engines by 2040.

The Green Alliance think tank are lobbying the government to bring this forward to 2030.

Diesel engines are now the bad boy of motoring where car manufacturers are having to curtail their output due to bad press.

Environmentalists have the demiase of diesel firmly in their sights.

 

So we have roughly 20 (maybe 10!) years to go before diesel engines become unavailable (as new) and consequently diesel supply will start to reduce. Obviously those with existing diesel engines in their cars/boats/lawnmowers/tractors will need access to a supply - but at what cost? [How much will the government charge / gallon, to make it an unattractive option?

And will ther government offer incentives to replace your existing diesel engine with new technology engines? (As they did electric cars for a while).

 

So the big question is - IF (and it is a big IF) the environmentalists get their way and IC engines cease in 10 years time. How long thereafter, will there be a government mandate to stop using diesel?

The consequences being that every NB in the UK (32,000 are there?) will need to replace its engine for electgric presumably?).

Secondly - for those where the costs of converting are too much - will their boat depreciate exponentially?

[IE: Will a £50k NB (now) become a £5k NB in 2035 for instance????

Are there any NB manufacturers converting and tooling across to hybrid/electric?

Are the Canal Trust taking this seriously and researching charging points along canal routes.

 

It will be eerie though - all these boats navigating the canals in complete silence..................?

I have already converted one boat and now doing my main boat, for me its because electric suits my needs, I only cruise for 2 - 3 hours then rest up for the day , I have 3.6kw of solar so on the move it will run from the sun on sunny days. I have 10 x 138 ah LifePo4s to run the boat when needed. Now this all suits me but wont suit others, and frankly its not my problem what the others do is it? For me and others its the future I know Johnathon Wilson has orders for 5 electric boats and has built a number already, so maybe the future is coming quicker than we think?

[Fly Navy]

Alan, don't you think I know that?  Why talk about 'other' boats on a NB forum therefore?

It could be that because canal boats are a confined audience (ie: no-where for them to go / easily controlled/ etc) that the canal trust get into bed with the government and tie up a deal in return for funding - to ramp up the demise of diesel on canals?

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Fly Navy said:

Alan, don't you think I know that?  Why talk about 'other' boats on a NB forum therefore?

Sorry - I didn't realise this is a NarrowBoat only forum, I have been under the misapprehension that it was for any boat on the Canals and Inland waterways, be they Steel NB's, Steel Wide Beams, GRP narrow or wide and even wooden boats.

 

My point was more that a 'small number' of boats in a certain market are not going to get any special support or help from the Government above and beyond what the overall market will receive (if anything)

I do not see the Government doing anything to support C&RT (as they are a commercial PLC) and the Government has tried to get 'rid of them' for many years - finally succeeding in 2012.

All Government grants to C&RT cease in 2023 and C&RT must be 'self supporting' by that date.

[Fly Navy]

Sorry. I should have been more specific. For "Narrow Boats" use: "Canal Boats".

The Canal Trust like lots of other quasi 'non-governmental' entity, is required to be stand alone by various dates. I used to work for one.

That said - Environmentalists are becoming more and more vociferous as the years pass and the government see "green" as a vote winner.

Either the canal users embrace change (in this case by going electric / hybrid early), or the government will do it for us (on their terms rather than ours).

The Canal Trust are best placed to be the voice for the users..

[dmr]

Governments think 5 years ahead so any longer term plans are merely aspirations.

The diesel engine has a lot of advantages and the current anti-diesel excitement is mostly down to ill thought out EEC regulations (and fines) regarding particulates in cities. Global warming is a much bigger issue and our CO2 emissions are actually increasing due to the switch from diesel to petrol.

 

If we plan to go electric then we need to be massively installing charging infrastructure now, including new generating capacity and more national grid capacity.  Our grid is overloaded and our generating capacity is falling.

 

Less road transport and less meat eating are the important things.

 

...............Dave

[Machpoint005]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

Global warming is a much bigger issue and our CO2 emissions are actually increasing due to the switch from diesel to petrol.

 

This is what happens when the 'media' get the public to jump onto a bandwagon. I'm happy with my diesel boat and diesel car - I will just carry on using the car less and less (and not in cities).  We need fewer cars full stop, and a lot more subsidised public transport using renewable energy sources. 

[dor]

As well as the many tens of thousands of boats on inland waters, and all the sea-going boats, there are hundreds of thousands of tractors, other farm machinery and then there is all the diesel engines used in the construction industry.  None of these have a particularly big turnover, so even if they were included in the ban on IC engines, there will be a huge number that will need to keep going for many years after any IC ban is put in place for cars.

 

Whatever the environmentalists and the idiot hard of thinking section of the media says, there will still be a demand for diesel fuel for many years to come.

[peterboat]

25 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

This is what happens when the 'media' get the public to jump onto a bandwagon. I'm happy with my diesel boat and diesel car - I will just carry on using the car less and less (and not in cities).  We need fewer cars full stop, and a lot more subsidised public transport using renewable energy sources. 

Ian on lots of things we dont agree but on this we do, I have an old toyota lucida diesel runs on Bio diesel 2 - 3k per year why scrap it? It does a great job, but for everything else I have two Hybrids cheap and clean to run allegedly ? However I do use the Supertram a lot as its so easy and fast

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

Governments think 5 years ahead so any longer term plans are merely aspirations.

The diesel engine has a lot of advantages and the current anti-diesel excitement is mostly down to ill thought out EEC regulations (and fines) regarding particulates in cities. Global warming is a much bigger issue and our CO2 emissions are actually increasing due to the switch from diesel to petrol.

 

If we plan to go electric then we need to be massively installing charging infrastructure now, including new generating capacity and more national grid capacity.  Our grid is overloaded and our generating capacity is falling.

 

Less road transport and less meat eating are the important things.

 

...............Dave

Are you a vegetarian? Honest answer now!!

[Peter X]

I've never been to Rotherham, but I learnt today it has "Supertrams". Coo! Apart from the fact that their network slightly predates Croydon's modestly titled Tramlink and is bigger, I don't see anything especially super. Certainly Croydon's trams appear to be more of a commercial success, carrying a lot more passengers. With hindsight though, they could have done with speed limiters to prevent that crash at Sandilands a year or two ago where the driver took a tight corner much too fast.

 

Realistically there are so many diesel engines out there in use that it would be uneconomic to replace them all in a hurry. Especially as there's bound to be an environmental cost to scrapping them early and making and installing the replacements. So I'm expecting that while governments should push hard for new engines to be less damaging to the environment (in both manufacturing and use), all the owners of the existing ones will be allowed to continue using them until they wear out, and diesel will continue to be available, but perhaps taxed a bit more to discourage its use.

[peterboat]

43 minutes ago, Peter X said:

I've never been to Rotherham, but I learnt today it has "Supertrams". Coo! Apart from the fact that their network slightly predates Croydon's modestly titled Tramlink and is bigger, I don't see anything especially super. Certainly Croydon's trams appear to be more of a commercial success, carrying a lot more passengers. With hindsight though, they could have done with speed limiters to prevent that crash at Sandilands a year or two ago where the driver took a tight corner much too fast.

 

Realistically there are so many diesel engines out there in use that it would be uneconomic to replace them all in a hurry. Especially as there's bound to be an environmental cost to scrapping them early and making and installing the replacements. So I'm expecting that while governments should push hard for new engines to be less damaging to the environment (in both manufacturing and use), all the owners of the existing ones will be allowed to continue using them until they wear out, and diesel will continue to be available, but perhaps taxed a bit more to discourage its use.

The problem with our Supertram, is it at times shares the road with road/train transport which slows it down, if it was all on dedicated track I am sure it would be quicker again and used more. The link to Rotherham will go all the way to Doncaster and will I suspect link all these areas to HS2 when its built, then it will be really busy

[dmr]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Are you a vegetarian? Honest answer now!!

I am vegetarian though not evangelical about it, and our dog eats meat. If what I read in the papers and on the internet is true (and I don't really trust either) then producing meat is responsible for more greenhouse gas than road transport.

 

It would be very sad to go for walk in the countryside and not see any farm animals, I believe we need to eat a whole lot less meet, drive a lot less, and fly a lot less, but no need to give up any of these things totally.

 

................Dave 

[Bee]

C02, Particulates, N0X, take your pick, it largely comes down to fossil fuel so that's going to be the target. Hybrids? All the gear for petrol propulsion plus a damn great battery full of rare and nasty metals and all the wiring / copper to  make it go. All in one vehicle. Madness

Electric only? Same or bigger damn great battery that needs charging a lot. How many charges before it gives up?

I think that we are still looking and to allow everybody their own personal car just might not be possible.

In the meantime pass the hummus (imported chick peas, sesame seeds, oil, garlic etc) whilst I check my carbon footprint.

I'm not sneering, honestly, climate change is truly scary but it ain't half hard to do the right thing - and our family really do try.

[GUMPY]

Many canal boat engines can run on bio-diesel/modified veg oil, so no problem with making fuel.

Most cars however will need to have been built before 2001 or so to use bio.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

47 minutes ago, dmr said:

I am vegetarian though not evangelical about it, and our dog eats meat. If what I read in the papers and on the internet is true (and I don't really trust either) then producing meat is responsible for more greenhouse gas than road transport.

 

It would be very sad to go for walk in the countryside and not see any farm animals, I believe we need to eat a whole lot less meet, drive a lot less, and fly a lot less, but no need to give up any of these things totally.

 

................Dave 

Honesty is the best policy ? Do you think if the figures showed you that eating less veg would help the climate you would eat more meat? Its funny how peoples views change when they enjoy a certain lifestyle. One of our sproggs is vegetarian and has been for nearly forty years so I know were you are coming from so to speak. As for flying, dont get me started. We have just about every body and every government in the World telling us to drive less, buy electric cars etc etc and yet air travel is rising every year, year on year burning humungous amounts of fuel and whenever these politicians have a " meeting " " summit " to talk about saving the planet they all turn up at the venue in seperate aeroplanes instead of using readily available technology that means they have no need to go anywhere  Of course saving the planet is just for us underlings and not the wealthy innitt.

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Honesty is the best policy ? Do you think if the figures showed you that eating less veg would help the climate you would eat more meat? Its funny how peoples views change when they enjoy a certain lifestyle. One of our sproggs is vegetarian and has been for nearly forty years so I know were you are coming from so to speak. As for flying, dont get me started. We have just about every body and every government in the World telling us to drive less, buy electric cars etc etc and yet air travel is rising every year, year on year burning humungous amounts of fuel and whenever these politicians have a " meeting " " summit " to talk about saving the planet they all turn up at the venue in seperate aeroplanes instead of using readily available technology that means they have no need to go anywhere  Of course saving the planet is just for us underlings and not the wealthy innitt.

It was factory farming and crap low grade meat that sent me veggie, I always said that I would still eat a good steak if it came from a happy free range cow. Tried this once or twice but once you stop regular meat eating a good steak does some bad things to the digestive system ?. But, having now spent the last 8 years with a dog on the boat I have become more strongly veggie as there ain't that much difference between a dog and a pig and I wouldn't fancy eating the dog..  Saving the planel is just an added bonus, but as I don't eat meet and don't fly I don't feel so bad about burning a lot of diesel in the boat engine, we get through about 1100 litres a year.

 

Bacon is no problem, its proper cornish pasties that I miss.

 

...............Dave

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Bee said:

C02, Particulates, N0X, take your pick, it largely comes down to fossil fuel so that's going to be the target. Hybrids? All the gear for petrol propulsion plus a damn great battery full of rare and nasty metals and all the wiring / copper to  make it go. All in one vehicle. Madness

Electric only? Same or bigger damn great battery that needs charging a lot. How many charges before it gives up?

I think that we are still looking and to allow everybody their own personal car just might not be possible.

In the meantime pass the hummus (imported chick peas, sesame seeds, oil, garlic etc) whilst I check my carbon footprint.

I'm not sneering, honestly, climate change is truly scary but it ain't half hard to do the right thing - and our family really do try.

Our two Honda Hybrids are marvelous beasties, very economical, very quick, both allowed in Londons ULEZ and exempt congestion charge. They should also be exempt the congestion charges shooting up around the country ? which is a real bonus, the older one of the two can do 80 mpg without to much effort and its an automatic. I think shortly it will be all Hybrids and EVs, its an easy change to make, I know because my previous cars were Shelby Mustangs etc. Little steps but along with my electric boat it all helps

[Momac]

I may be wrong but think diesel is a byproduct of the petrol refining process . 

https://sciencing.com/origin-diesel-fuel-19702.html

 

Does this perhaps means they have to produce diesel and need to get rid of it somehow as long as they are making petrol. If demand for diesel cars reduces will this not reduce the price of diesel?

I have just today ordered a petrol engine car after running diesels since 2005  , so making my own contribution to the decline of diesel car sales.

At the same time contributing to global warming in buying a new car rather than keeping an older car running forever. 

 

I am not convinced an electric car is any more environmentally friendly than a petrol or diesel car when whole life is considered including scrapping. It is  is another of those modern day cons . Nor is electricity clean when we are importing wood pellets from Canada by ship in order to burn the pellets to make steam to turn the turbines that generate electricity.

 

I don't expect ships or aircraft will be running on anything other than hydrocarbon fuels any time soon.  This will in itself require oil refining to continue.

 

I am not worried about running short of diesel but my grandchildren might very well think differently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by MartynG

[Matt&Jo]

There is noooooo way the infrastructure will be in place for electric powered narrowboats....can you imagine the costs or hikes in licence fees for funding that, the hundreds of miles of canals and charging stations where......?

 

I dont think diesel engines will die for all applications....just road vehicles....unless technology takes a huge leap

[Drayke]

Seems like a great excuse for the CMers can’t move not allowed to run my engine. Are well back to the old horse to pull the boats.

[peterboat]

36 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I may be wrong but think diesel is a byproduct of the petrol refining process . 

https://sciencing.com/origin-diesel-fuel-19702.html

 

Does this perhaps means they have to produce diesel and need to get rid of it somehow as long as they are making petrol. If demand for diesel cars reduces will this not reduce the price of diesel?

I have just today ordered a petrol engine car after running diesels since 2005  , so making my own contribution to the decline of diesel car sales.

At the same time contributing to global warming in buying a new car rather than keeping an older car running forever. 

 

I am not convinced an electric car is any more environmentally friendly than a petrol or diesel car when whole life is considered including scrapping. It is  is another of those modern day cons . Nor is electricity clean when we are importing wood pellets from Canada by ship in order to burn the pellets to make steam to turn the turbines that generate electricity.

 

I don't expect ships or aircraft will be running on anything other than hydrocarbon fuels any time soon.  This will in itself require oil refining to continue.

 

I am not worried about running short of diesel but my grandchildren might very well think differently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They can reduce the production of diesel at the refineries with ease, I suspect that getting diesel will continue for the foreseeable future, but it will cost I have no doubt

[Momac]

29 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They can reduce the production of diesel at the refineries with ease

What a shame.