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OllyO

New boats need room sealed boilers?

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Our boat was built in 2005 and the PO said she was not allowed to fit a normal piezo style boiler due to the change in regs at the time.

 

I don’t like the boiler we got (Morco FE11), it’s never worked right (I think due to the incorrect flue) it needs 240v power to fire and it’s generally a temperamental pain in the ass.

 

As I understand it now BSS have relaxed the regs in this department.  Does this mean I am now ‘allowed’ to rip the thing out and replace it with piezo open boiler?

 

Thanks in advance 👍 

Edited by OllyO

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1 minute ago, OllyO said:

Our boat was built in 2005 and the PO said she was not allowed to fit a normal piezo style boiler due to the change in regs at the time.

 

I don’t like the boiler we got (Morco FE11), it’s never worked right (I think due to the incorrect flue) it needs 240v power to fire and it’s generally a temperamental pain in the ass.

 

As I understand it now BSS have relaxed the regs in this department.  Does this mean I am now ‘allowed’ to rip the thing out and replace it with piezo open boiler?

 

Thanks in advance 👍 

Is the boat a liveaboard ?

Where is the boiler (new boiler) located ?

Do you mean "you" to replace, or someone else ?

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5 minutes ago, OllyO said:

Boat is live aboard, boiler installed in kitchen. Gas safe Engineer will fit it 

As long as the Gas safe Engineer has his 'ticket' endorsed for Boat LPG installations you should have no problems 

Do it !!

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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As long as the Gas safe Engineer has his 'ticket' endorsed for Boat LPG installations you should have no problems 

Do it !!

Yep, he’s got the ticket. He only does marine gas work

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2 hours ago, OllyO said:

Our boat was built in 2005 and the PO said she was not allowed to fit a normal piezo style boiler due to the change in regs at the time.

 

I don’t like the boiler we got (Morco FE11), it’s never worked right (I think due to the incorrect flue) it needs 240v power to fire and it’s generally a temperamental pain in the ass.

 

As I understand it now BSS have relaxed the regs in this department.  Does this mean I am now ‘allowed’ to rip the thing out and replace it with piezo open boiler?

 

Thanks in advance 👍 

 

I think you are confusing the regs that govern building of a new boat (the RCD), and the BSS regs.  Now your boat has been built the only regs that matter are the BSS. (Except for a possible future buyer who might care deeply about box ticking. Most don't though.) 

 

Despite Alan's scare-mongering posts, the BSS doesn't care who installed your new piezo open boiler, as long as it works safely.  |The BSS is perfectly happy with open flue water heaters. 

 

Just answering the question you asked, instead of one you didn't!

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8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think you are confusing the regs that govern building of a new boat (the RCD), and the BSS regs.  Now your boat has been built the only regs that matter are the BSS. (Except for a possible future buyer who might care deeply about box ticking. Most don't though.) 

 

Despite Alan's scare-mongering posts, the BSS doesn't care who installed your new piezo open boiler, as long as it works safely.  |The BSS is perfectly happy with open flue water heaters. 

 

Just answering the question you asked, instead of one you didn't!

That’s brilliant thank you mike, just the answer we were looking for.  I’ll be looking for a new open boiler now.

 

Question is, which one do we go for?

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I would ask the gas fitter for a recommendation and check which ever one you buy is ok for boats as if it isn’t the fitter may refuse to fit it.

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Quote

 

Before spending a lot of money it might be prudent to see whether there's something wrong with the flue arrangement?

Morco's are used a lot in boats....

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2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Before spending a lot of money it might be prudent to see whether there's something wrong with the flue arrangement?

Morco's are used a lot in boats....

 

 

Morcos that are no longer made, you mean?

 

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On 11/09/2018 at 21:29, OllyO said:

Our boat was built in 2005 and the PO said she was not allowed to fit a normal piezo style boiler due to the change in regs at the time.

 

I don’t like the boiler we got (Morco FE11), it’s never worked right (I think due to the incorrect flue) it needs 240v power to fire and it’s generally a temperamental pain in the ass.

 

As I understand it now BSS have relaxed the regs in this department.  Does this mean I am now ‘allowed’ to rip the thing out and replace it with piezo open boiler?

 

Thanks in advance 👍 

Mine was a 2005 shell and during fit out I was told the same thing so never installed a water heater, however shortly after they seemed to realise, after some prompting, that there had been very few incidents relating to the heaters and so backtracked. The restrictions were therefore short lived. The timing was unfortunate for me as I could of fitted on at fit out stage, nowadays I don't have a suitable location for one. Just unfortunate timing. 

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On ‎11‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 23:54, Mike the Boilerman said:

Despite Alan's scare-mongering posts, the BSS doesn't care who installed your new piezo open boiler, as long as it works safely.  |The BSS is perfectly happy with open flue water heaters. 

 

Just answering the question you asked, instead of one you didn't!

And let us remember that there is nothing to stop you installing a gas water heater yourself, provided you are competent to do so. On the other hand, if you have never done gas plumbing nor installed a boiler / water heater before, I suppose the chances are you aren't competent to do so.

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21 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

And let us remember that there is nothing to stop you installing a gas water heater yourself, provided you are competent to do so. On the other hand, if you have never done gas plumbing nor installed a boiler / water heater before, I suppose the chances are you aren't competent to do so.

 

Quite right too. It would be outrageous for genuinely competent people to be banned by law from carrying out gas installation at all. To carry out gas work for reward one still only needs to be registered with the body currently charged with administering the register of gas installers, Gas Safe Register this week. GSR will accept the various ACS tickets issued by the training skools but I'm fairly certain there are other ways of convincing them to admit you to the register. 

 

Regarding competence, the problem is that lots of incompetent people believe all there is to competency is making gas joints that don't leak, thereby demonstrating their own incompetence. 

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8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Regarding competence, the problem is that lots of incompetent people believe all there is to competency is making gas joints that don't leak, thereby demonstrating their own incompetence. 

Although it’s one step up from making Gas joints that DO leak I suppose...

  • Haha 1

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16 hours ago, nicknorman said:

And let us remember that there is nothing to stop you installing a gas water heater yourself, provided you are competent to do so. 

 

Is that still true if the boat is your home? I'd always been led to believe (perhaps wrongly) that it wasn't allowed. 

Edited by blackrose

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17 hours ago, nicknorman said:

. On the other hand, if you have never done gas plumbing nor installed a boiler / water heater before, I suppose the chances are you aren't competent to do so.

I'd never done it until I did it. That included installing 2 separate gas systems down both sides of the boat with gas fridge and water heater on one side and oven and hob on the other. The Calor pipe sizing tables showed that even with half inch pipe for the main run it would be borderline given the length of one run due to the configuration of my kitchen. Expensive to install initially with 2 regulators, etc, and almost double the amount of pipe, but it's passed 4 BSS inspections with different inspectors each time and several comments about it being unusual on a boat and how well its been installed. It's really not rocket science. Most tradespeople will naturally try to confound you with reasons why you shouldn't attempt these things yourself, but compared to what I do their professions are fairly simple and fairly easily learned - at least to the extent one needs to do the job. Let's face it, try talking to most of these people and it soon becomes apparent that they aren't very clever so how hard can it be? 😂

Edited by blackrose

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5 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Is that still true if the boat is your home? I'd always been led to believe (perhaps wrongly) that it wasn't allowed. 

Yes. The law (GSIUR) doesn’t apply to leisure boats. It does apply to residential boats but simply says that the person doing the work, if not doing so professionally/for money etc, shall be competent to do the work. The Act is primarily all about doing gas work as an employee/professional. Have a read of it, it’s not particularly long. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/contents/made

Edited by nicknorman

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4 hours ago, blackrose said:

Most tradespeople will naturally try to confound you with reasons why you shouldn't attempt these things yourself, but compared to what I do their professions are fairly simple and fairly easily learned - at least to the extent one needs to do the job. Let's face it, try talking to most of these people and it soon becomes apparent that they aren't very clever so how hard can it be? 😂

 

The thing is, as an amateur yourself you will have not had the benefit of seeing and being asked to put right some of the utter abortions carried out y DIY people. This is why any ethical tradesman will try to convince any random DIYer to get it done properly. You Mike are very different from the average plasterer or shop assistant who fancies having a bash at their own gas installation. No it isn't that hard for people like you and many of us on here with an ability to understand technical instructions. Experienced professionals get to occasionally see the evidence that not all DIYers are competent like you. 

 

And I agree with your last sentence. Sadly a lot of people who have had the training and been squeezed through the exams are not very bright, but at least they have ticked the right boxes (literally) at least once in an exam situation, so I hold they MUST be safer than similarly thick people out there who have not had the benefit of such training. The system is far from perfect but is is what we have.

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On ‎11‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 23:54, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think you are confusing the regs that govern building of a new boat (the RCD), and the BSS regs.  Now your boat has been built the only regs that matter are the BSS. (Except for a possible future buyer who might care deeply about box ticking. Most don't though.) 

 

Despite Alan's scare-mongering posts, the BSS doesn't care who installed your new piezo open boiler, as long as it works safely.  |The BSS is perfectly happy with open flue water heaters. 

 

Just answering the question you asked, instead of one you didn't!

Whilst you are correct that the BSS doesn't give 2-hoots* (turning to Port), and that was the implied question, would it not be as useful to appraise the OP of the legal requirements for installation.

 

If the boat is a liveaboard, and he is paying to have it installed then it must be installed by a Gas Safe registered, marine LPG certified fitter.

If he is not paying the installer then it can be fitted by any "competent person" (with competency normally proven by qualification and membership of relevant associations)

 

* The BSS will only check that the installation complies with the BSS requirements.

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27 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The thing is, as an amateur yourself you will have not had the benefit of seeing and being asked to put right some of the utter abortions carried out y DIY people. This is why any ethical tradesman will try to convince any random DIYer to get it done properly. You Mike are very different from the average plasterer or shop assistant who fancies having a bash at their own gas installation. No it isn't that hard for people like you and many of us on here with an ability to understand technical instructions. Experienced professionals get to occasionally see the evidence that not all DIYers are competent like you. 

 

And I agree with your last sentence. Sadly a lot of people who have had the training and been squeezed through the exams are not very bright, but at least they have ticked the right boxes (literally) at least once in an exam situation, so I hold they MUST be safer than similarly thick people out there who have not had the benefit of such training. The system is far from perfect but is is what we have.

 

Fair enough Mike, yes I agree that we do need safety standards and the average person isn't best placed to tackle these sorts of jobs.

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If he is not paying the installer then it can be fitted by any "competent person" (with competency normally proven by qualification and membership of relevant associations)

 

Point of order M'Lud...

 

Not strictly true. 

 

1) One way of demonstrating competency to a court is to produce ACS passes in the relevant categories. There may also be other ways, it is up to the court. 

 

2) Membership of 'relevant associations' proves nothing. Most members of Gas Safe Register are not qualified or competent to work on boats.

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3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Point of order M'Lud...

 

Not strictly true. 

 

1) One way of demonstrating competency to a court is to produce ACS passes in the relevant categories. There may also be other ways, it is up to the court. 

 

2) Membership of 'relevant associations' proves nothing. Most members of Gas Safe Register are not qualified or competent to work on boats.

Which is why I said :

 

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If the boat is a liveaboard, and he is paying to have it installed then it must be installed by a Gas Safe registered, marine LPG certified fitter.

 

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